Israel/gaza Thread

[spamspamspam]

So why don't you accept that it has changed back to being jewish?I agree, I didn't say that it did.

 

I only pointed out that either side can produce various info to trump the others claims.

 

What does (or would) give a right to the area, in your opinion?

 

What possible solution do you see, what is the "end point" for this, in your opinion?

 

I do accept the original borders drawn up, no choice but to. I wouldn't be for it if it was being done now but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Go back to 1947 and split the land so both have more than enough room to survive and thrive.

 

What I do not accept is the last 60 years of land grabs, genocide and ethnic cleansing of the area. I do not accept the new Jewish settlements on Palestinian land. I do not accept the retaliation Israel dishes out for ever stone thrown their way and I do not accept our government blindly backing this genocide.

 

Wars for land should be stopped. No country has a right to occupy another in this day and age. No country has a right to move its people in while throwing others out.

 

The first thing that has to happen is the US and UK strolls up to their blockades with real aid, informs Israel that this aid is going through and they can either deal with it or face the consequences. Impose serious financial sanctions on Israel, impose the old borders we stupidly drew up in the first place in 1946 and make sure Israel knows that we will no longer back their genocide and land grabbing.

 

You'd be amazed how quickly Israel would change its song if it didnt have our backing and the backing of the US.

[spamspamspam]

 

 

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-strongly-condemns-israeli-shelling-its-school-gaza-serious

 

STATEMENT BY UNRWA COMMISSIONER-GENERAL PIERRE KRÄHENBÜHL

Jerusalem

Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.

We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts. It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.

The precise location of the Jabalia Elementary Girls School and the fact that it was housing thousands of internally displaced people was communicated to the Israeli army seventeen times, to ensure its protection; the last being at ten to nine last night, just hours before the fatal shelling.

I condemn in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces.

This is the sixth time that one of our schools has been struck. Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.

We have moved beyond the realm of humanitarian action alone. We are in the realm of accountability. I call on the international community to take deliberate international political action to put an immediate end to the continuing carnage.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION

UNRWA is a United Nations agency established by the General Assembly in 1949 and is mandated to provide assistance and protection to a population of some 5 million registered Palestine refugees. Its mission is to help Palestine refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, West Bank and the Gaza Strip to achieve their full potential in human development, pending a just solution to their plight. UNRWA’s services encompass education, health care, relief and social services, camp infrastructure and improvement, and microfinance.

Financial support to UNRWA has not kept pace with an increased demand for services caused by growing numbers of registered refugees, expanding need, and deepening poverty. As a result, the Agency's General Fund (GF), supporting UNRWA’s core activities and 97 per cent reliant on voluntary contributions, has begun each year with a large projected deficit. Currently the deficit stands at US$ 69 million.

[Bluto10]

Any of you lot got a CV to back up the amateur and sometimes extreme opinions on this topic?

[Ke1t]

Any of you lot got a CV to back up the amateur and sometimes extreme opinions on this topic?

 

Is it your opinion that some kind of formal education is required before forming an opinion?

 

[Bluto10]

Yes

 

I demand some credentials, ideally higher education in the Ivy or Russell groups.

A C- in ModStuds at the very minimum.

[Bluto10]

You have to earn the right for me to take your opinions seriously.

I dinna just believe any internet monkey you know, I'm nae daft

[Ke1t]

Yes

 

I demand some credentials, ideally higher education in the Ivy or Russell groups.

A C- in ModStuds at the very minimum.

 

 

Before I answer that I'm afraid I shall have to insist upon seeing your Forming Opinions on People Who Form Opinions certs....

 

[Bluto10]

I'm a grade A success min with little or no time to worry about political trivialities.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

spamspamspam, on 30 Jul 2014 - 17:00, said:

Go back to 1947 and split the land so both have more than enough room to survive and thrive.

Yes any solution has to accommodate both fairly.

 

What about Jerusalem? Make it a jointly-controlled, open city?

 

Do you think this would be the end of the matter?

 

I think they have to work towards peaceful coexistence and - dare I say it - trust, before implementing such a solution.

 

Lets see if they can both go 6 months, without shooting at one another, then try for a year etc.

spamspamspam, on 30 Jul 2014 - 17:00, said:

What I do not accept is the last 60 years of land grabs, genocide and ethnic cleansing of the area. I do not accept the new Jewish settlements on Palestinian land. I do not accept the retaliation Israel dishes out for ever stone thrown their way and I do not accept our government blindly backing this genocide.

I broadly agree, I also reject illegal Israeli settlements.

 

Israeli has a right to defend itself however, though of course this must be proportionate. I don't think any nation should be obliged to tolerate a set number of mortar bombs before they can legitimately act, one bomb is one too many.

 

But, when they decide to act, they do so ruthlessly - but this is in their psyche; after the ww2 holocaust and then many bona fide wars with the arab nations ganging up on them. They must have a kind of siege mentality and this must be overcome for any lasting pace.

 

You talk of palestinians "throwing stones" - in fact, via Syria and Iran, the palestinians have at their disposal a modern range of highly effective Russian weapons systems, including ATGMs and RPG-29 "Vampyr" rocket launchers. Their anti-armour capabilities are considerable and the equal of any bona fide military (in type, if not number). And their own weapons industry is sophisticated enough to produce the rockets which they rarely cease firing.

spamspamspam, on 30 Jul 2014 - 17:00, said:

Wars for land should be stopped. No country has a right to occupy another in this day and age. No country has a right to move its people in while throwing others out.

I agree, but it is legitimate for the victor of a just conflict to adjust borders or confiscate land to their advantage. This was even common in europe till the 2nd war - look at alsace/lorraine.

 

The places israel occupies date from the 6-day war; though some of these were controlled by other arabs not palestinians. I think at least some of these occupations are legitimate, (dont know all the details of each), for example the golan heights are occupied because syria used these as artillery positions to shell israeli civilians. If they withdrew from golan currently, sure as fuck someone will be up there fast, firing rockets at israeli civilians.

spamspamspam, on 30 Jul 2014 - 17:00, said:

You'd be amazed how quickly Israel would change its song if it didnt have our backing and the backing of the US.

Well they need friends in the UN, for sure.

 

But the US will never stop supporting them, as Israel is their sole reliable ally in the region. And if they withdrew support, all they gain is a single day orf positive headlines and then they have no allies in the region, and china or russia (probably the former) now has a new ally. And then, following a "naval base for resources" deal being signed, British tourists can admire Chinese/Russian warships in the Med, as they sun themselves on Spanish beaches.

[fatjim]

 

Observing their behaviour across the globe, I dont think modern day muslims have the capacity to be reasonable.

 

 

 

A bit of a generalisation that.

 

That would be like saying

"Observing their behaviour across the globe, I don't think modern day Catholics have the capacity to stop fucking kids"

[fatjim]

But someone can retort that it had been a jewish nation 2000 years ago and so ergo its their land.

 

 

 

We'll get to fuck all sorts of animals not just sheep when the Pagans come back to the British Isles.

Tasty.

[Ke1t]

 

A bit of a generalisation that.

 

That would be like saying

"Observing their behaviour across the globe, I don't think modern day Catholics have the capacity to stop fucking kids"

 

 

I'm going to start playing Logical Fallacy Bingo with C_S's posts.

 

Let's just check off Faulty Generalisation here.....

[Clydeside_Sheep]

A bit of a generalisation that.

 

That would be like saying

"Observing their behaviour across the globe, I don't think modern day Catholics have the capacity to stop fucking kids"

Its not really like saying that, and as we know, it was teenage boys as opposed to 'kids' (but lets keep pretending its the vague, genderless 'kids' for obvious reasons, right?)

 

But you are right it was an unfair generalisation - one I retract.

 

I guess its easy to slip in to unfair generalisations, when you observe that islam coming into contact with another culture inevitably results in killing. we Catholics have also done some killing in our time (and how) but if we can grow out of it, I dont see why others cant too.

 

I am sure there are reasonable islamic factions, yes, but there are also some seriously unreasonable ones. (I tend to think how reasonable they are depends on who is numerically superior at that particular time).

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I'm going to start playing Logical Fallacy Bingo with C_S's posts.

 

Let's just check off Faulty Generalisation here.....

If id have been nine minutes earlier above, your post would be redundant lol

[Jonty]

Why does everybody care about all the Muslims being murdered in Palestine by land grabbing, fundamentalist bastards, but nobody cares about all the Muslims being murdered in Syria and Iraq by land grabbing, fundamentalist bastards?

[360]

Why does everybody care about all the Muslims being murdered in Palestine by land grabbing, fundamentalist bastards, but nobody cares about all the Muslims being murdered in Syria and Iraq by land grabbing, fundamentalist bastards?

 

The Palestine conflict is in vogue at the minute.

[fatjim]

Why does everybody care about all the Muslims being murdered in Palestine by land grabbing, fundamentalist bastards, but nobody cares about all the Muslims being murdered in Syria and Iraq by land grabbing, fundamentalist bastards?

 

I care when anyone is being murdered. It doesn't matter what religion it is. Despite me hating religion I care about people. Let's not pretend that all of this is about religion though. This is about people suffering because of a minority of people making decisions that have no effect on them except them getting rich. Who has the most to gain from instability in the world? The cunts who make weapons.

 

War!!!!!! what it is it good for?

Eh the arms industry.

[fatjim]

Its not really like saying that, and as we know, it was teenage boys as opposed to 'kids' (but lets keep pretending its the vague, genderless 'kids' for obvious reasons, right?)

 

 

 

Kids were fucked let's not fudge the facts with some being teenagers. Kids were fucked by Catholics the world over. Not all Catholics of course but the comparison stands with your generalisation.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/24/paedophile-priest-francis-paul-cullen-jailed-15-years

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/judge-slams-church-over-paedophile-priest-secrets/story-fni0fee2-1226878344488?nk=7c551e7c0903c988d1a7bc9ea5f2aeef

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112787/Paedophile-priest-abused-boys-decades-jailed-22-years.html

[Ke1t]

If id have been nine minutes earlier above, your post would be redundant lol

 

Except that it wouldn't. Your statement

 

Observing their behaviour across the globe, I dont think modern day muslims have the capacity to be reasonable.

is exactly a Faulty Generalisation.

 

For that to not be a faulty generalisation you would have to have either;

 

A/ Comprehensively observed the behaviour of at least a substantial and representative cross-section of the 1.8 Billion Muslims on the planet

 

or

 

B/ Show statistical data that shows that 'modern day muslims' are more likely to choose a demonstrable objectively 'unreasonable' option over a demonstrable objectively 'reasonable' option

 

and

 

B 1/ Demonstrate objectively reasonable/unreasonable options chosen and not chosen

 

... lol.

 

You use logical fallacy like I use porn sites. Always using them but hoping no-one catches you.

[robbojunior]

What contrary position have I taken?

 

But someone can retort that it had been a jewish nation 2000 years ago and so ergo its their land.

 

Only by coming to an agreement - which inevitably means concessions from both - will the conflict be ended.No we didnt, they took it via an insurgency. We tried to stop them arriving, we tried to defeat their insurgency - and we failed.I have not blamed the muslims for the conflict, stop making things up.

 

I have blamed them for treating human life as cheap, and for deliberately causing civilian casualties on both sides (something israel does not do deliberately).Instead of making person remarks, why not show what I have said that is incorrect?

 

Palestinian treatment at the hands of Israel is like a loving massage compared to muslim treatment of minorities in their own nations.

 

- is it not true that non-muslims in islamic states must pay the state protection money?

 

- is it not true that muslims fail to live in peace with others?

 

- is it not true that lies are frequently used as a pretext to harrass, imprison or even kill minorities in muslim nations?

 

- is it not true that women and minorities are denied even basic human rights in muslim nations?

 

- is it not true that foreign workers must live in secure compounds in muslim nations, both for their own safety and because they are considered unclean to mix with the rest of population?

 

- is it not true that muslim nations fund global terror?

 

And this is what people want to replace israel with? That doesn't sound like a very good idea to me.

 

A state that lived in relative peace for 400 years should expect to have the right to the land they occupy. A 2000 year old claim is not morally justified in those circumstance s. You cannot rewind history so you are morally bankrupt if you justify overthrowing a nation on that basis. The land was not anyones to give away and it wasnt the jews to take. Even if you accept the partiton agreement, what israel has done is unjust and inhumane by further claiming palestine land by force and acts against human rights.

 

No one has said palestinians have not committed atrocities but they have been at war against an occupation engineered and supported by the west to which was forced upon them.

 

We cant turn back the clock but that does not make Israel and the west any less culpable for the horrors that took place and continue to take place as a result of their assistance and support of Israel.

[Bluto10]

 

The Palestine conflict is in vogue at the minute.

Its cool to discuss it on social media even when you know fuck all about it

[robbojunior]

Its cool to discuss it on social media even when you know fuck all about it

Like you.

[BrianFaePerth]

Wikipedia's servers must be taking a pounding for all this informed opinion.

[Jonty]

Its cool to discuss it on social media even when you know fuck all about it

"We are all Hamas now."

 

I'm fucking nae.

[Ke1t]

Wikipedia's servers must be taking a pounding for all this informed opinion.

 

 

Or, alternatively, some of us use non-FOX/Sky/Murdoch news services to find out what's actually happening around the world, rather than watching reality shows and Top Gear.

[Bluto10]

I get my history and current affairs knowledge like everyo e else does from Hollywood DVDs.

[fatjim]

I get my history and current affairs knowledge like everyo e else does from Hollywood DVDs.

 

 

That is a bit unfair to say that everyone is just as retarded as you, Bluto.

[vanderark14]

 

 

By Christ youre an arsehole sometimes min.

Scotland voted against Iraq in Westminster. Against, our MP's in Westminster said no.

Scotland stood up and said to Westminster via our parliament - Not in our name

 

Scotland was only involved in Iraq because we were dragged there by Westminster. We wanted no part, we said so.

 

Those are the facts.

 

And Labour, they would've been in power at Westminster without our votes during Iraq. Simple fact.

 

We were dragged, we are not responsible.

 

This world can place sanctions on North Korea and Iran that makes it near impossible for them to build missiles with the capabilities of destroying their neighbours. This world also stands by while the UK sells components to a country that is committing genocide.

 

you are wrong Spammer, he is a fucking arsehole all of the time. He is the most ignorant poster I've seen on this board and that takes some fucking beating.

[Bobby Connor]

 

you are wrong Spammer, he is a fucking arsehole all of the time. He is the most ignorant poster I've seen on this board and that takes some fucking beating.

I don't think he means any harm, it's just that his brain is wired up in the same way as a woman's...

 

 

...and he's a Weegie.

[elephantstone78]

Some very interesting posts on this thread. If a bunch of guys in Scotland (and one in the usa) cannot acknowledge the other's arguments and reach a compromise then it hints at why this terrible and tragic state of affairs will never be properly resolved. Basically there is not a solution that is agreeable to both sides. I wish I didn't have this view but I am getting ever more weary and cynical of human beings actions with each passing year. Christ knows what I will be like in my 40s

Israel is never going to say do you know what we shouldn't have taken this land here have it back we are off to live in Dresden and Palestinians are not going to say we recognise your stated claim to this land so if u give us some of it back we will share it together.

I did agree with cs's view that if the Arabs did gain control again it would just turn it into another middle eastern hell hole which has scant regard for the rights of any non Islamist. However, that does not excuse genocide and if there is one group of people that should be cognisant of this it is the Israeli Jews.

Anyway I am away to look at the hot birds thread again give my brain a rest