The Fall Of The New Firm

[The Beed]

Hi,my name's Richard, I'm a Bury fan from down in England who has a soft spot for the Dons given my folks were from there originally, I am the only one in my family born outside of Aberdeen in fact. I am also a bit of a budding writer for a website/fanzine called The Football Pink who later this year are producing an entire issue on Scottish football. I want to write a bit of an historic piece on the period in the 1980s when Aberdeen and Dundee United were a dominant force in the Scottish game. The angle we really want to take is why the two clubs couldn't sustain it, and that's where I'm hoping you can help me out.

 

There has been a lot written on the subject in the past but I'm looking for your opinions on why the challenge faded, for both clubs. Was it due to the departure of Ferguson and McLean and the re-awakening of the Old Firm, or was there more to it than that? And if was just that what was it about those departures and of the players too caused the fall from grace?

 

Hopefully look forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks for your time.

 

Richard

[Dynamo]

Rangers spending millions they didn't have via David Murray's blank cheque book.

When we spent money, we didn't spend it wisely. Poor managerial appointments.

[RAZOR]

First tip, never use the term 'New Firm'.

[vanderark14]

Rangers spending millions they didn't have via David Murray's blank cheque book.

When we spent money, we didn't spend it wisely. Poor managerial appointments.

 

introduction of TV money, David Murray, CL, poor management appointments, poor buys & Darren Mackie are what caused our down fall

[ollie1903]

Sky and Uefa only wanting the "haves" dining at the top table whilst not even feeding the "have nots" a measely titbit once in a while.

[Robbie Winters]

Aberdeen & Dundee United just happened to be in the right place at the right time on obtaining Ferguson & McLean as one of a kind managers. At the end of their tenures albeit in different circumstances Aberdeen did not capitalize (systematic failure) in the right appointments on and off the pitch and McLean and Dundee United were victims of the money that started creeping in at the start of the 90's, a small club that could not keep up with the times. In saying that their youth system has produced the odd gem that kept them going financially.

[Guest milne_afc]

Dundee United were bit part players when Aberdeen broke the stranglehold. Ferguson fed them scraps from the table, but the (mis)conception that there was some kind of alliance akin to that of the minkers is laughable - see trophy count.

 

Murray, a man who developed a sociopathic parsonality after he lost his legs, put an end to it when he tried to crush the opposition in order to take the OF into a bigger league(EuroSuperLeague then EPL) but he fucked that up like he did his Ford capri. LOL

[The Oxford Don]

 

Aberdeen & Dundee United just happened to be in the right place at the right time on obtaining Ferguson & McLean as one of a kind managers. At the end of their tenures albeit in different circumstances Aberdeen did not capitalize (systematic failure) in the right appointments on and off the pitch and McLean and Dundee United were victims of the money that started creeping in at the start of the 90's, a small club that could not keep up with the times. In saying that their youth system has produced the odd gem that kept them going financially.

 

 

Spot-on.

 

A similar analogy can be made with the likes of Ipswich Town and Nottingham Forest. Back in the day before money comprehensively fucked everything sideways, having the good fortune and foresight to appoint a great manager could be enough to skyrocket a team's fortunes. So the likes of Robson, Clough, McLean and Fergie were simply the 'right men in the right place at the right time', and achieved successes with their respective clubs which would have been unimaginable ten years previously, and are all-but impossible now because of the effect of TV money, which has served mainly to create a closed society at the very top of the game to which no newcomers may be admitted.

 

It used to be a great manager that transformed your club. These days, it's being bought by some oligarch, or an oil sheik. Shite state of affairs.

[Robbie Winters]

 

Spot-on.

 

A similar analogy can be made with the likes of Ipswich Town and Nottingham Forest. Back in the day before money comprehensively fucked everything sideways, having the good fortune and foresight to appoint a great manager could be enough to skyrocket a team's fortunes. So the likes of Robson, Clough, McLean and Fergie were simply the 'right men in the right place at the right time', and achieved successes with their respective clubs which would have been unimaginable ten years previously, and are all-but impossible now because of the effect of TV money, which has served mainly to create a closed society at the very top of the game to which no newcomers may be admitted.

 

It used to be a great manager that transformed your club. These days, it's being bought by some oligarch, or an oil sheik. Shite state of affairs.

Spot-on

 

The level playing field will never be seen again and that goes across Europe. As seen from the way UEFA organize CL & EL draws there will never be another Aberdeen, Ipswich, Mechelen, Oldco scenario.

I despise modern football

[360]

Milne makers an important point.

 

What was it that United actually won in that period? A league and a league cup, or something like that.

 

Not exactly comparable to our trophy haul, is it?

[Bluto10]

They did pretty well in Europe; EC semi and Uefa cup runners up.

 

They were the poor mans Aberdeen; no doubts about that; but there's no shame in it

[Lencarl]

Graeme Souness changed the landscape in Scottish football when he joined Rangers and imported the big money signings ( Money which Rangers did not have ). Celtic had to follow them to keep up. Aberdeen and Dundee United had not the means to keep up with the ugly sisters although Aberdeen did try to catch up with a few big money signings. A smaller team can win a title but only if said team has the right combination of players all playing above their potential at the same time like Aberdeen in the 80's. Leicester proved that point last season.

[The Oxford Don]

They did pretty well in Europe; EC semi and Uefa cup runners up.

 

They were the poor mans Aberdeen; no doubts about that; but there's no shame in it

 

Yes, and they started from a much lower base than we did.

 

Ten years before Fergie we were undergoing the Turnbull Revolution; it was him more than anyone else who dragged the club kicking and screaming into the modern era and laid the foundations for the success which was to come. Before McLean, on the other hand, Dundee United were basically East Fife and lived completely in the shadow of their neighbours from across the street. Which seems a bit bizarre now, but historically Dundee were always the 'senior' club in that city.

 

I don't particularly like them (though admittedly, I don't particularly hate them either), but I have nothing but respect for what United achieved under McLean.

[S2RDS]

Money pretty much changed the game here in Scotland. That money then led to the myth that Celtic and Rangers were the only two big clubs in Scotland and as a result that myth has ingrained itself into society and those running the game.

 

I personally don't remember too much about football in the 80's really, but even in the early 90's you could see the tide really beginning to turn. As said above, there was an era when a good football manager could turn an average team into a very decent team and make a few decent signings to win you something, however when David Murray went to Rangers, it changed here in Scotland for the worse. Soon you could be any Tom, Dick or Harry and win the league with either of those two clubs and many did. You didn't need to be technically gifted, you still don't, you just get 10, 20, 30 times more to spend than any other club in the same league.

 

The Dons and Dundee United are the two clubs that proved you could be successful without the big wads of cash, but we are also the last two good clubs of that era in Scottish Football. The fans are really the victims of what money has done to the game and you will never see the likes of Aberdeen, Notts Forrest, Ipswich etc ever winning leagues, cups and European trophies again. Sadly money talks !

[vanderark14]

Money pretty much changed the game here in Scotland. That money then led to the myth that Celtic and Rangers were the only two big clubs in Scotland and as a result that myth has ingrained itself into society and those running the game.

 

I personally don't remember too much about football in the 80's really, but even in the early 90's you could see the tide really beginning to turn. As said above, there was an era when a good football manager could turn an average team into a very decent team and make a few decent signings to win you something, however when David Murray went to Rangers, it changed here in Scotland for the worse. Soon you could be any Tom, Dick or Harry and win the league with either of those two clubs and many did. You didn't need to be technically gifted, you still don't, you just get 10, 20, 30 times more to spend than any other club in the same league.

 

The Dons and Dundee United are the two clubs that proved you could be successful without the big wads of cash, but we are also the last two good clubs of that era in Scottish Football. The fans are really the victims of what money has done to the game and you will never see the likes of Aberdeen, Notts Forrest, Ipswich etc ever winning leagues, cups and European trophies again. Sadly money talks !

 

 

illustrated perfectly by Neill Lennon and Walter Smith, neither have done anything when away from the ugly sisters. Pop corn teeth and cardigans wearing pair of cunts

[Iraq_Red]

Souness going to Rangers coincided with the English teams being banned from Europe due to the Liverpool fans rioting and causing the Hysel stadium disaster. This allowed Souness to sign players they may well have been unable to if the ban had not been in place. Most of these players (mercenaries) were England Internationals, such as Butcher, Woods; Roberts etc.

 

Aberdeen couldn't compete with the big money buys (and as later discovered SDM, was using money that Rangers didn't have thanks to very lax management at the BoS) and at the same time Alex Ferguson left to manage Man Utd. Also, as pointed out the wrong managers, such as Porterfield and players were signed.

 

I think another fact that is often overlooked is the tragic death of Chris Anderson, as he was a man with great foresight and if he'd still been around, I think the current Aberdeen Football Club would have been in either a new stadium or a redeveloped Pittodrie, with a training ground and had far more success that we've had.

[boboisared]

Dundee United were bit part players when Aberdeen broke the stranglehold. Ferguson fed them scraps from the table, but the (mis)conception that there was some kind of alliance akin to that of the minkers is laughable - see trophy count.

 

Murray, a man who developed a sociopathic parsonality after he lost his legs, put an end to it when he tried to crush the opposition in order to take the OF into a bigger league(EuroSuperLeague then EPL) but he fucked that up like he did his Ford capri. LOL

I can see the boy copying that word for word like.

[Guest milne_afc]

I can see the boy copying that word for word like.

I don't mind as long as he credits appropriately.

[tup]

Possibly the most sensible and coherent thing you ever wrote on here anyway.

[Daz the Don]

illustrated perfectly by Neill Lennon and Walter Smith, neither have done anything when away from the ugly sisters. Pop corn teeth and cardigans wearing pair of cunts

This.

 

A pair of overachieving self righteous pricks you are ever likely to come across who did sweet FA when away from their money laden domestic success guaranteed tenures in Glasgow.

 

Whereas the great man left us in 86 and went on to prove to be quite simply the best in the business. A giant amongst managers for what he achieved north and south of the border. Unlike that two impostors.

 

The arrival of Souness and the millions they backed him and subsequent managers with was the undoubted turning point. Although we did give them a run for their money over a few seasons 89 to 93. When you think back now, they were buying current English, russian Dutch and German internationals and fukin Brian laudrup. No wonder they were winning league after league. Over a season, how on earth were we or utd meant to compete with that.

[Bluto10]

Laud tup wasn't actually that good then.

Bench warmer given away from AC.

He was no Savecevicivihivic.

[The Oxford Don]

Dundee United were bit part players when Aberdeen broke the stranglehold. Ferguson fed them scraps from the table, but the (mis)conception that there was some kind of alliance akin to that of the minkers is laughable - see trophy count.

Murray, a man who developed a sociopathic parsonality after he lost his legs, put an end to it when he tried to crush the opposition in order to take the OF into a bigger league(EuroSuperLeague then EPL) but he fucked that up like he did his Ford capri. LOL

Agree with this, although Murray's main motivation was less taking Rangers out of Scotland than it was winning the European Cup/Champions League, so that Rangers wouldn't have to live with the 'stigma' (deranged) of having been outdone by their friends from across the city. Bankrupting the club in the process, and also pretty much killing Scottish football as a competitive spectacle. So well done with that you corrupt, no-legged, jumped-up nouveau riche cunt.

[Bluto10]

That's why rangers could buy him; cause he was just OK.

 

That's why he was rubbish St Chelsea; cause he was just ok.

 

Dinna make out rangers bought world duper stars min

[Guest milne_afc]

It's nae as if Ferguson was on a shoestring budget either. He broke transfer records in Scotland and England. The difference being he spent within his/our means.

 

 

although Murray's main motivation was less taking Rangers out of Scotland than it was winning the European Cup/Champions League, so that Rangers wouldn't have to live with the 'stigma' (deranged) of having been outdone by their friends from across the city

That's Timmy mantra, min. Murray knew he was on borrowed time/money, but one thing he seen a long way down the line was obscene telly income that would cover his debts and the only way he could get a big enough chunk was to a bigger league. All imho.

[Daz the Don]

That's why rangers could buy him; cause he was just OK.

That's why he was rubbish St Chelsea; cause he was just ok.

Dinna make out rangers bought world duper stars min

Don't think they were world duper stars either, thats backed up by their annual humilation in europe, but they were a million miles from the standard of player we were courting at the time, due to the fact they were shelling out millions upon millions

[tiktak]

The short answer is obvious. It is the same reason that Europe's leagues are now almost entirely dominated by the very richest clubs. In the early 80s the difference in wages between the likes of Aberdeen compared to the Ugly Sisters was fairly minimal. The big clubs wanted more of the cake so along came things like keeping your own home gate rather than sharing equally. UEFA restructure their tournaments so that only the very richest clubs benefit and Sky have interest only in the sisters.

Ergo, your answer is ...........MONEY. Plain and oh so simple.

[RUL]

Aberdeen downfall started with Willie Miller having a disasterous transfer policy in his last season, releasing experienced players, some signings not coming off. It was fucking awful but I have to say I still take great joy in watching Miller's Aberdeen team. On our day we must have been up there with the top teams in terms of fluency, attacking, skill. It was breathtaking at times.

 

Then Aitken/Milne got involved, the god damn awful Richard Donald Stand. Milne's atrocious record at hiring managers, I don't know who the fuck was guiding Milne for about 15 years, I often wonder if we had the St Johnstone chairman, Brown, with our weathl and resources at the time, things could have been a lot different for Aberdeen. Whilst Brown seems to have a good knack at getting value for money, Milne managerial signing policy appeared little more than some kind of tax avoidance scheme as we raged from one fucking disaster to the next.

 

There is no question Aberdeen have underachieved since the 80s and yes football has changed but we could have achieved so much more if we had a competent chairman guiding us. So, in short, Milne happened.

[MegaloDon]

One day we were buying the best players in Scotland.

The next , Rangers were buying the best in the UK

Hately , Woods Butcher etc..

Then Celtic followed

[MegaloDon]

we could have achieved so much more if we had a competent chairman guiding us. So, in short, Milne happened.

 

We would not have been able to compete with the then old firm when they started spending.

Who was it Fergie was after joe jordan or gordon mcqeen (can't remember ), but I think we couldn’t afford or not allowed by Donald, to get him if I remember correctly.

 

I agree that we are not well served or represented by our present Chairman though.

This is the person who sided with Celtic to keep the corrupt voting structure. That said it all.

 

Not to mention the fact he had the brass neck to stay on after we were bailed out by a generous benefactor.

He could and should have taken the opportunity to step down then.

[ericblack4boss]

Aberdeen and Dundee United, despite the remarkable exploits in Europe and were never given the credit that they truly deserved,

 

In 1980, Aberdeen were taught a lesson in the European cup by Liverpool, outplayed, out manouvred and outclassed , Ferguson was on record as saying that defeat was catalyst for the soon to come cup winners cup victory.

 

A squad filled with a mix of international mainstays, reliable pros .and exciting young players instilled with a siege mentality, they were quite rightly regarded as one of the top sides in Europe at the time.

During Ferguson's,tenure at Aberdeen , record transfer fees were paid for Peter weir, other substantial fees were paid for McDougall, Bett, and the international squad could boast Leighton, McLeish, Miller, Simpson, strachan, weir, rougvie, all as regular inclusions.

 

Dundee United it is fair to say underachieved, a squad boasting what was at that time a close second to Aberdeen's,

Hegarty, narey, malpas, gough, sturrock, bannon, dodds thomson,mcinally, bowman, ,were all Scotland full caps ,along with club stalwarts , mcalpine, Milne, Redford, Ferguson, United should have won far more,there is no doubt that the way they exited the 1984 European cup was to this day a disgrace, a defeat by a superior side, playing well, and fairly would have been much more palatable, would they have gone on to beat the all conquering Liverpool side, we will never know, but the thought of that Liverpool front line dalglish, rush, along with wark, Whelan Johnston, would have been a fantastic match up, one alas that corruption and cheating denied us.