Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[Foster14]

It will be something that will be played on by a No campaign I think, knowing that you have 38% against the EU in the recent campaign, with the assumption being that a substantial proportion of them will be pro-independence, and it will muddy the waters on their view of an independent Scotland.

 

You just know that in the next campaign you will have the some politicians who argued that EU membership of Scotland is very likely, even a certainty having in the pervious referendum argued that EU membership would be far from certain, even not possible with a yes vote.

 

As for the SNP being pro-EU, as an overall party, I'd be surprised if they were all aligned in such a way as individuals. The parties stances on such matters are strategically aligned with what they believe enhances Scotland's chances of being an independent nation. It therefore adopts the populist approach in a lot of what it does, and they knew that as a nation that we were pro-EU, so ran with that. At worst they'd back a winning horse, yay we represented you and we are still in the EU. At best they have a scenario where Scotland is dragged out of the EU kicking and screaming creating a constitutional situation that benefits their cause. I'd be surprised if the party survived much in to an independent Scotland in it's current form, probably just through the original transition before splitting in to different political factions thereafter.

[Bluto10]

The main one is renewables. Scotland's geographical positioning and the size of its coastline means it has the potential to be a world leader in wind and wave power. Given everyone harks on about how oil will eventually run out, and remember it will run out everywhere, not just in the North Sea, then renewable technology is the future.

 

There are several scandanavian projects leading the way, that have been designed by Scots who have had to go overseas to find any investment because the UK government don't give a shit.

That's just not likely to be very true, now is it.

 

If it was such a great idea then probably it would be in place now earning the govt £££££££

 

Or perhaps it's just not financially viable at the moment.

Perhaps it's not a priority

Whatever.

 

I don't know.

 

But i suspect there's more to it than that

[beer gut]

 

The main one is renewables. Scotland's geographical positioning and the size of its coastline means it has the potential to be a world leader in wind and wave power. Given everyone harks on about how oil will eventually run out, and remember it will run out everywhere, not just in the North Sea, then renewable technology is the future.

 

There are several scandanavian projects leading the way, that have been designed by Scots who have had to go overseas to find any investment because the UK government don't give a shit.

I hear a lot about renewables being Scotlands saviour and it's complete bullshit. 2/3rds of UK windfarms are built by foreign companies. Sure some aberdeen based firms help with the installation but the bulk of the work goes to foreign companies.

[E-P-K]

I hear a lot about renewables being Scotlands saviour and it's complete bullshit. 2/3rds of UK windfarms are built by foreign companies. Sure some aberdeen based firms help with the installation but the bulk of the work goes to foreign companies.

 

Aye, all these windfarms that we have, and yet to see any saving on energy bills

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Scotland should go it alone and maybe it will be tough, maybe we'll lose military contracts to build English warships, but fuck it, instead we could win contracts to build all sorts of other shit. And perhaps we could become a world leader in renewables and become one of the most prosperous nations in the world. No-one can tell me its not possible.

Personally I believe Scotland's potential is being hampered by being in the UK. That's what it comes down to for me.

I admire your positivity about Scotland and that's exactly what we need, regardless of what the future holds.

 

They are British warships, not English warships and we will definitely not be building any more of them if we break from the UK.

 

That might not mean a whole lot to you or me, but its a pretty shit deal for the young lassie who has just finished her degree in Marine Engineering, or the fella who has recently completed his apprenticeship as a welder. Pretty sad for them to watch the career they thought they had build go down the pan on the back of Sturgeons waffle.

 

And its a blow for Scotland to lose the specialist skills involved in building modern complex warships - something few places can do, and even fewer still as good as they do it on the Clyde.

 

There's is nothing to stop us becoming a world leader in renewables while still part of the UK, given the autonomy we have.

 

Anything we can achieve as an Independent country, we can achieve as part of the UK.

 

But as an independent country, we lose what we benefit from the UK.

 

I don't think the UK hampers Scotland potential - I think it helps us achieve it. Not that we need help, but (for example), we can't deny the benefit from the £15 billion extra spending which we enjoy.

[beer gut]

 

Aye, all these windfarms that we have, and yet to see any saving on energy bills

Savings? You taking the piss. When was the last time your electricity bill was lowered? We paid huge subsidies to build these things. Yes they will benefit us eventually but not for a long time.

[beer gut]

.

 

[robbojunior]

I hear a lot about renewables being Scotlands saviour and it's complete bullshit. 2/3rds of UK windfarms are built by foreign companies. Sure some aberdeen based firms help with the installation but the bulk of the work goes to foreign companies.

 

Fair enough, lets keep letting foreign companies build windfarms and foreign energy firms run our national grid and fuck us up the ass for energy bills.

 

Scotland deserves to be fucked up the ass the lack of ambition is staggering.

 

The potential is there, and it is backed up by people who do actually know what they are talking about. Just because folk with zero ambition can't imagine it, doesn't mean its not possible for Scotland to create all its own energy.

And that is true for every other sector - the potential is there, but folk are too feart.

[beer gut]

 

Fair enough, lets keep letting foreign companies build windfarms and foreign energy firms run our national grid and fuck us up the ass for energy bills.

 

Scotland deserves to be fucked up the ass the lack of ambition is staggering.

 

The potential is there, and it is backed up by people who do actually know what they are talking about. Just because folk with zero ambition can't imagine it, doesn't mean its not possible for Scotland to create all its own energy.

And that is true for every other sector - the potential is there, but folk are too feart.

If you think sturgeon would block foreign companies working here and ensure all renewables were built and installed by Scottish companies then you are living in fantasy land.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

That is the interpretation to suit your agenda.

Its based on fact.

 

She said the big change to justify a new referendum was us "being dragged out of the EU".

 

She said she was "passionate" about EU membership.

 

Now, as usual, that's all been binned in the blink of an eye as its emerging many Scots are ambivalent at best about the EU.

The SNP problem is that they don't build a case, they try to ride transient currents of opinion.

 

I expect the unionists will seek to exploit this confusion about EU membership and try to create a wedge and infighting among pro- and anti-EU people in the indy camp.

 

Divide et impera.

[Big Man]

Wrong Big Man. Parliament is sovereign in the U.K. (unlike in the states). The power to approve a referendum belongs to Westminster, and is not open to legal interpretation.

 

-

[robbojunior]

If you think sturgeon would block foreign companies working here and ensure all renewables were built and installed by Scottish companies then you are living in fantasy land.

You don't even have the capacity to imagine a potential future where Scotland prospers do you?

 

What has Sturgeon got to do with it? In an independent Scotland, does your imagination only allow you to see her as the supreme leader?

EDIT:

This is the whole problem right here. This is not about Sturgeon, its not about the SNP. It's about what Scotland could be.

I have all the respect in the world if you can look at this objectively and say I don't believe Scotland could be better as an independent nation as opposed to part of the UK. I will disagree with you, but I respect the standpoint.

However I have NO respect for you if you think arguements for or against independence have anything to do with Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond or the SNP.

[The Boofon]

 

Aye, all these windfarms that we have, and yet to see any saving on energy bills

I think we've enough wind as it is without farming more.

[beer gut]

You don't even have the capacity to imagine a potential future where Scotland prospers do you?

 

What has Sturgeon got to do with it? In an independent Scotland, does your imagination only allow you to see her as the supreme leader?

EDIT:

This is the whole problem right here. This is not about Sturgeon, its not about the SNP. It's about what Scotland could be.

I have all the respect in the world if you can look at this objectively and say I don't believe Scotland could be better as an independent nation as opposed to part of the UK. I will disagree with you, but I respect the standpoint.

However I have NO respect for you if you think arguements for or against independence have anything to do with Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond or the SNP.

I voted yes last time and will prob vote yes again but don't kid yourself if you think renewable energy are the savior of scotland. I deal a lot with renawables in my job and it is nothing like the oil industry. TBH i hate dealing with renewable projects. Everyone tries to shaft you.

[robbojunior]

I voted yes last time and will prob vote yes again but don't kid yourself if you think renewable energy are the savior of scotland. I deal a lot with renawables in my job and it is nothing like the oil industry. TBH i hate dealing with renewable projects. Everyone tries to shaft you.

 

I never said it would be the saviour of Scotland. I used it as an example of potential.

[Bluto10]

You don't even have the capacity to imagine a potential future where Scotland prospers do you?

 

What has Sturgeon got to do with it? In an independent Scotland, does your imagination only allow you to see her as the supreme leader?

 

EDIT:

This is the whole problem right here. This is not about Sturgeon, its not about the SNP. It's about what Scotland could be.

I have all the respect in the world if you can look at this objectively and say I don't believe Scotland could be better as an independent nation as opposed to part of the UK. I will disagree with you, but I respect the standpoint.

 

However I have NO respect for you if you think arguements for or against independence have anything to do with Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond or the SNP.

Ok

 

But why do you think Scotland on its own is better than a Scotland within the UK?

[craegDAMH]

 

Its a massive u-turn.

 

Her position in the wake of Brexit was "Scotland voted to remain in the EU" and we wont be "dragged out against out will".

 

This was the supposed basis for a new indyref, that "most scots had voted to remain in the EU" (that isnt actually true, rather most Scots who voted at all voted to remain).

 

It's not the "supposed basis", it is the basis. The manifesto which received record support in 2016 said this:

 

"The Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum...if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out the EU against our will."

 

The Scottish government published in December the white paper stating their position on EU negotiations, accepting that Scotland would leave the EU but that the UK should remain in the single market or Scotland should retain access to it.

 

This compromise was ignored by the UK government which has said it is planning a hard Brexit with no single market access for the UK or for Scotland. This despite Theresa's first trip as PM being coming up to Scotland and saying the devolved parliaments would be consulted throughout negotiation.

 

So yes, the trigger for a second referendum is being dragged out of the EU against our will (as demonstrated by the 62% vote) but Sturgeon saying there will be no vote if we retain access to the single market is not a U-turn.

 

Seriously, just read her whole speech. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nicola-sturgeon-scottish-independence-speech-in-full-second-referendum-snp-leader-first-minister-a7627166.html

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Nicola Sturgeon’s unlikely success in allowing a Tory Prime Minister to speak for the great Scottish majority – who did not want to kick off another referendum, 30 months after the last one – is unlikely to be looked back on as her finest hour.

She chose the wrong ground to fight on and will not change that by trying to crank up indignation, egged-on by her attention-seeking predecessor. The test here is “reasonableness”. To most Scots, the grounds for refusing another referendum are reasonable while the convoluted case for demanding one carried no such credibility.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/brian-wilson-thank-goodness-the-four-day-war-is-over-1-4394217

[robbojunior]

Ok

 

But why do you think Scotland on its own is better than a Scotland within the UK?

 

Will Scotland be better on its own than within the UK? It is a question that no-one will ever know the answer to, unless we become independent.

Obviously, this is because the business of running a country is unbelievably complex.

 

However, it is this very complexity that makes me believe, or at least hope, that Scotland would be better as an independent nation.

 

We have a different legal system, different laws, different education and health systems, we have a small population spread out over a vast area, making us distinct from the rest of the UK not just in geography, but politically and economically.

Yet despite these significant differences we are bound by the fiscal setup of the UK. We are unable to tailor our taxation to suit our demographics and politics. We are unable to borrow money. We cannot negotiate trade deals with other nations. We have seen 30 years of oil revenue be spent with no future planning and no ability to demand how it be invested or saved in a pot.

 

If we were largely indistinct from the UK as a whole, I would most likely be of the opinion that bigger is better, but we are distinct. Our laws, education and politics are CLEARLY distinct. So to me it seems utterly ridiculous that we are governed by a system so different to ours, and makes absolute sense that a Scottish Government with full control of Scotland would have an infinitely better chance of serving the nation. They would be accountable whereas the UK Government is not accountable to Scotland. And don't say why doesn't Sheffield become independent or some such, I've already made clear the distinction. We are a nation already.

[CraigHill]

Sturgeon should fall on her sword if the referendum is declined.

[spamspamspam]

Posting the ramblings of openly pro unionist press adds as much weight to your argument as posting shite from wings does for cally.

 

You either want to live in a Scotland thats governed by the English or thats governed by the people that live in the country itself.

 

You are happy to live in a country thats governed by another, others arent.

 

All the shite you link aint going to change that, it isnt going to win any arguments and its barely going to be read by most.

 

Give up min before you make yourself look even sillierereier

[spamspamspam]

Sturgeon should fall on her sword if the referendum is declined.

 

Why?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

The level of inadequacy among indy supporters is unappealing:

 

robbojunior - Scots build "english warships"

SOTR - Scotland "not a proper country"

Redforever86 - Scots "pathetic losers"

Spanx3 - Scotland "governed by the English"

None of this resonates with me at all.

Believe it or not, some of us are not intimated by the English, nor are we made to feel inadequate by larger neighbours.

Some of us walk tall with confidence.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Posting the ramblings of openly pro unionist press adds as much weight to your argument as posting shite from wings does for cally.

 

You either want to live in a Scotland thats governed by the English or thats governed by the people that live in the country itself.

 

You are happy to live in a country thats governed by another, others arent.

 

All the shite you link aint going to change that, it isnt going to win any arguments and its barely going to be read by most.

 

Give up min before you make yourself look even sillierereier

 

Clearly rattled.

 

Scotland isnt governed by the English, thats a silly thing to say.

[mcdougall(4)]

 

The main one is renewables. Scotland's geographical positioning and the size of its coastline means it has the potential to be a world leader in wind and wave power. Given everyone harks on about how oil will eventually run out, and remember it will run out everywhere, not just in the North Sea, then renewable technology is the future.

 

There are several scandanavian projects leading the way, that have been designed by Scots who have had to go overseas to find any investment because the UK government don't give a shit.

 

The Scottish Government doesn't actively support renewables.

They could have helped out Pelamis (a wave generation renewable co) and didn't, it closed.

 

It's shameful on all levels of government not to look at renewables but the idea that it's a priority here and if only those dastardly Englishers would get out of the way...

[E-P-K]

 

The Scottish Government doesn't actively support renewables.

They could have helped out Pelamis (a wave generation renewable co) and didn't, it closed.

 

It's shameful on all levels of government not to look at renewables but the idea that it's a priority here and if only those dastardly Englishers would get out of the way...

 

Really ?

 

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Energy-sources/19185

[robbojunior]

 

The Scottish Government doesn't actively support renewables.

They could have helped out Pelamis (a wave generation renewable co) and didn't, it closed.

 

It's shameful on all levels of government not to look at renewables but the idea that it's a priority here and if only those dastardly Englishers would get out of the way...

 

Again, drawing assumptions from statements that haven't been made.

 

I did not make any claims about it being the Scottish Government's priority. I'm talking about the potential of a future independent Scotland.

[robbojunior]

 

The level of inadequacy among indy supporters is unappealing:

 

robbojunior - Scots build "english warships"

SOTR - Scotland "not a proper country"

Redforever86 - Scots "pathetic losers"

Spanx3 - Scotland "governed by the English"

None of this resonates with me at all.

Believe it or not, some of us are not intimated by the English, nor are we made to feel inadequate by larger neighbours.

Some of us walk tall with confidence.

 

 

You're not intimated by the English?

 

Anyway, shite spelling aside, I'm not intimidated by the English either, nor do I feel inadequate, hence the belief that Scots could do fantastically well as an independent nation. We are anything but inadequate.

Although the doom mongers tend to make it sound like we are.

 

I don't hate the English, I don't feel threatened by them, I just think Scotland is not best served by a single government serving two very different entities. They should each have their own government.

[Jonty]

Posting the ramblings of openly pro unionist press adds as much weight to your argument as posting shite from wings does for cally.

 

You either want to live in a Scotland thats governed by the English or thats governed by the people that live in the country itself.

 

You are happy to live in a country thats governed by another, others arent.

 

All the shite you link aint going to change that, it isnt going to win any arguments and its barely going to be read by most.

 

Give up min before you make yourself look even sillierereier

We are not "governed by the English though are we, anymore than Aberdonians would be "governed by weegies" in an independent Scotland.

 

My vote and your vote, and every Englishmans vote counts the same. I voted Tory last time and lib Dem election before that, yet I'm saddled with some SNP mouthpiece.

 

Them be the breaks.

[robbojunior]

We are not "governed by the English though are we, anymore than Aberdonians would be "governed by weegies" in an independent Scotland.

 

My vote and your vote, and every Englishmans vote counts the same. I voted Tory last time and lib Dem election before that, yet I'm saddled with some SNP mouthpiece.

 

Them be the breaks.

 

Wrong. We are a nation with distinct laws, education system, health service, governed by a different group of nations with their own distinct laws, education system, health service. Which does not in any way correlate to a distinction between Aberdeen and Glasgow.