Var errors

[DeltaRay1903]

6 hours ago, Dandyesque said:

I'm going to guess you don't go to many games.

Either way, it's putting me right off. If you can't enjoy a bounce, what's the fucking point?

Exactly. I just can't get my head around any match going fan being in favour of VAR and all it's delays. It's killing the spontaneity that is such a large part of what makes the game exciting. I understand that it creates drama for the armchair fan but in the grounds it's a major ball ache. I'm surprised the 80s chant "you thought you had scored, you were wrong you were wrong" reserved for the rare occasion a goal was disallowed hasn't been resurrected.

 

Get VAR in the bin. 

[aberdeen1970]

The Kilmarnock cup game recently was much better with no var checks.  Chalk and cheese in terms of match experience. 

[Don Shula]

1 hour ago, aberdeen1970 said:

The Kilmarnock cup game recently was much better with no var checks.  Chalk and cheese in terms of match experience. 

Yes, completely agree that showed how VAR was available but didn't interfere in every little decision. Keep it for "clear and obvious" only. It was very unlike Dallas on VAR - maybe he fell asleep?

[Schapenneuker]

On 3/17/2024 at 6:44 PM, strachanmcgheegoal said:

Listening to the radio today on a driving job.

thought Michael Stewart made a good point about Shanklands “interference” offside namely what is he doing there if he’s not trying to put the keeper off.

So frustrating that there seems to be a quick fix for some of VARs problems..  Stick an ex player in beside the VAR ref.

 

 

No thanks. 

Football is a remarkable sport in that only a small proportion of the players who play the game professionally actually know and understand the laws of the game. 

I say this as a referee myself in a past life (not at senior level, but my interactions with ex-players who coached and managed at lower levels made me aware of how few of them understood the laws)

Your average footballer in Scotland is thick as shit and his never in his life sat down and read the FIFA book on the laws of the game, far less made an effort to understand what they mean and how they are applied. 

I'd be surprised if many of these guys who have played football in Scotland over the years can actually read. 

[DeltaRay1903]

12 minutes ago, Schapenneuker said:

No thanks. 

Football is a remarkable sport in that only a small proportion of the players who play the game professionally actually know and understand the laws of the game. 

I say this as a referee myself in a past life (not at senior level, but my interactions with ex-players who coached and managed at lower levels made me aware of how few of them understood the laws)

Your average footballer in Scotland is thick as shit and his never in his life sat down and read the FIFA book on the laws of the game, far less made an effort to understand what they mean and how they are applied. 

I'd be surprised if many of these guys who have played football in Scotland over the years can actually read. 

It's not helping that they're now hell bent on changing the rules every five minutes and not for the better either. Let's go back to the 70s. Everyone knew the rules then. 

[Schapenneuker]

Weirdly, many people think football has rules, not laws. 

 

[DeltaRay1903]

2 minutes ago, Schapenneuker said:

Weirdly, many people think football has rules, not laws. 

 

Aye. You were definitely well suited to beinv a ref 🤣

[Schapenneuker]

1 minute ago, DeltaRay1903 said:

Aye. You were definitely well suited to beinv a ref 🤣

It's question number 1 in the ref. exam. 

 

[strachanmcgheegoal]

On 3/17/2024 at 8:07 PM, Daisy1903 said:

I don't think VAR is bad, I think it's just highlighted how shite/corrupt the refs are. 

I think it’s also demonstrated how corruptible the game is.  Previously the ref had the out - I didn’t see it - which in the cold light of day is fair enough.  But we now have VAR removing that excuse which SHOULD have been a benefit.

But it seems to have morphed into a situation where they are taking a reality, one we can all see in VAR (much like the Lampard goal example I gave above) and somehow twist it into a, well, what is verging on a scripted plot line.

[Schapenneuker]

Back to VAR.

When it comes to factual decisions...offside....VAR actually works fine. A good example was Hearts' non-goal on Saturday. The assistant referee (correctly) gave the goal because he can't see the angle that can be seen by VAR. 

The VAR official looks at it, (correctly) judges that Shankland is jumping around in the keeper's line of vision, and ultimately the goal is (correctly) ruled out. VAR does it's job, great. 

Where Scottish officials fuck up is in forgetting that they should intervene ONLY for 'clear and obvious errors'. We have too many games in Scotland where the VAR official is seeing himself as a second referee, and that's destroying the credibility of the system. 

It must come from poor instructions being handed down from the top. Maybe things will improve now that Crawford Allan is gone. But maybe not. 

 

[KingswellsRed]

Anything which creates doubt about whether a goal is a goal is bad as far as I am concerned. The only technology which should be used is anything which can instantly make a decision. Otherwise it takes too much away from the fan experience.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

4 minutes ago, KingswellsRed said:

Anything which creates doubt about whether a goal is a goal is bad as far as I am concerned. The only technology which should be used is anything which can instantly make a decision. Otherwise it takes too much away from the fan experience.

That’s fine in theory, but whether you like it or not fans now have the minutae of the game in front of them (a phone) so if you’re going to go down that road you have to protect the refs who will be denied that assistance.  I think we can safely say in Scotland that’s not going to happen.

But I do take the point - what’s more important, one refs windows or 15,000 fans viewing experience.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

2 hours ago, Schapenneuker said:

No thanks. 

Football is a remarkable sport in that only a small proportion of the players who play the game professionally actually know and understand the laws of the game. 

I say this as a referee myself in a past life (not at senior level, but my interactions with ex-players who coached and managed at lower levels made me aware of how few of them understood the laws)

Your average footballer in Scotland is thick as shit and his never in his life sat down and read the FIFA book on the laws of the game, far less made an effort to understand what they mean and how they are applied. 

I'd be surprised if many of these guys who have played football in Scotland over the years can actually read. 

Interesting and I completely take the point re players intellect.  But relying solely on the VAR ref’s currently isn’t working either for whatever reason (and we could debate those for hours!).

Is there a quick fix to improve it?  Not perfect it, just improve it.

Use the Motherwell game as an example.  Their goal should have stood.  30seconds max should have identified that.  Was the handball deliberate, no.  Did it “create” the goal.  No.  Decision Goal.  There I’ve 20 seconds left and I typed it.

Shinnie handball?  Nope clear pull by the Mwell player first that “creates” the penalty.  Decision no penalty.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

1 hour ago, Schapenneuker said:

Back to VAR.

When it comes to factual decisions...offside....VAR actually works fine. A good example was Hearts' non-goal on Saturday. The assistant referee (correctly) gave the goal because he can't see the angle that can be seen by VAR. 

The VAR official looks at it, (correctly) judges that Shankland is jumping around in the keeper's line of vision, and ultimately the goal is (correctly) ruled out. VAR does it's job, great. 

Where Scottish officials fuck up is in forgetting that they should intervene ONLY for 'clear and obvious errors'. We have too many games in Scotland where the VAR official is seeing himself as a second referee, and that's destroying the credibility of the system. 

It must come from poor instructions being handed down from the top. Maybe things will improve now that Crawford Allan is gone. But maybe not. 

 

I’d agree.  Another good example was Alistair Johnstones goal.  Guaranteed Nobody saw that offside on the initial pass and (trust issues re the integrity of the lines aside) that’s a correct decision also, like it or lump it.

[redone]

12 minutes ago, strachanmcgheegoal said:

Interesting and I completely take the point re players intellect.  But relying solely on the VAR ref’s currently isn’t working either for whatever reason (and we could debate those for hours!).

Is there a quick fix to improve it?  Not perfect it, just improve it.

Use the Motherwell game as an example.  Their goal should have stood.  30seconds max should have identified that.  Was the handball deliberate, no.  Did it “create” the goal.  No.  Decision Goal.  There I’ve 20 seconds left and I typed it.

Shinnie handball?  Nope clear pull by the Mwell player first that “creates” the penalty.  Decision no penalty.

Good post min

Hope you’ve fired off your application to the SFA for the Head of Referees position 

 

[Andy_123]

2 hours ago, Schapenneuker said:

No thanks. 

Football is a remarkable sport in that only a small proportion of the players who play the game professionally actually know and understand the laws of the game. 

I say this as a referee myself in a past life (not at senior level, but my interactions with ex-players who coached and managed at lower levels made me aware of how few of them understood the laws)

Your average footballer in Scotland is thick as shit and his never in his life sat down and read the FIFA book on the laws of the game, far less made an effort to understand what they mean and how they are applied. 

I'd be surprised if many of these guys who have played football in Scotland over the years can actually read. 

I don't doubt a lot of ex players are thick as shit, but lets be honest so are our refs. Far too many who have been promoted way above their capabilities from amateur weegie league football to make up the numbers.

I reckon the ex players the SFA would end up using for VAR would be just as biased as most of our refs are. Can absolutely guarentee 90% of them would be ex Celtic/Rangers.

The only way we'll ever have a fair refereeing system in Scotland is with English/foreign refs who aren't ex season ticket holders / don't drink in supporters club bars of teams they support and don't stay in the central belt so won't be in fear of Celtic and Rangers fans panning in their windows, hassling them on the street etc.

[zeroisgod76]

37 minutes ago, strachanmcgheegoal said:

Use the Motherwell game as an example.  Their goal should have stood.  30seconds max should have identified that.  Was the handball deliberate, no.  Did it “create” the goal.  No.  Decision Goal.  There I’ve 20 seconds left and I typed it.

Surely the handball was an assist for the goal though? It hit Bairs arm which altered the course of the ball and put it straight to Miller who took the shot that ended up in the net. Had it not hit Bairs arm then it likely wouldn't have fell to Miller. So the handball (deliberate or not) directly influenced the goal? The time it takes to make decisions clearly isn't acceptable, but i'd personally say in this instance the final VAR decision was right.

[Daisy1903]

12 hours ago, Dandyesque said:

I'm going to guess you don't go to many games.

Either way, it's putting me right off. If you can't enjoy a bounce, what's the fucking point?

I know what you mean. It's back to my point that there should be a time limit on it. If it's 30 seconds then that would mean we can celebrate a goal properly

[strachanmcgheegoal]

2 hours ago, zeroisgod76 said:

Surely the handball was an assist for the goal though? It hit Bairs arm which altered the course of the ball and put it straight to Miller who took the shot that ended up in the net. Had it not hit Bairs arm then it likely wouldn't have fell to Miller. So the handball (deliberate or not) directly influenced the goal? The time it takes to make decisions clearly isn't acceptable, but i'd personally say in this instance the final VAR decision was right.

And thereins the debate.  Whats more important?  The semblance of a correct defendable decision (and Im happy with the Motherwell "goal" whichever way it went, yours or mine) or the 5 minute bounce killing post mortem we currently have.

[Dandyesque]

2 hours ago, zeroisgod76 said:

Surely the handball was an assist for the goal though? It hit Bairs arm which altered the course of the ball and put it straight to Miller who took the shot that ended up in the net. Had it not hit Bairs arm then it likely wouldn't have fell to Miller. So the handball (deliberate or not) directly influenced the goal? The time it takes to make decisions clearly isn't acceptable, but i'd personally say in this instance the final VAR decision was right.

Weird how Sportsound thought the Motherwell goal should have stood, but also that Shinne should be penalised.

Both "handballs" are marginal at best.

[thurso]

1 hour ago, Dandyesque said:

Weird how Sportsound thought the Motherwell goal should have stood, but also that Shinne should be penalised.

Both "handballs" are marginal at best.

Wasn’t much difference in Mackenzie’s for the penalty against Dundee and the Motherwell striker for their “goal”

[strachanmcgheegoal]

See this is what I’m not getting with VAR and peoples interpretation.

2 hours ago, thurso said:

Wasn’t much difference in Mackenzie’s for the penalty against Dundee and the Motherwell striker for their “goal”

You mean apart from the blatant push which we can all see on VAR?

3 hours ago, Dandyesque said:

Weird how Sportsound thought the Motherwell goal should have stood, but also that Shinne should be penalised.

Both "handballs" are marginal at best.

Yes but Shinnie’s has a blatant tug on McKenzie’s arm first which causes the subsequent ball to arm thing.  Call the foul you see and don’t lose sleep over what follows.  It’s immaterial.  More importantly it is what VAR is there for.

[Itsagoal]

10 hours ago, redone said:

Good post min

Hope you’ve fired off your application to the SFA for the Head of Referees position 

 

Waste of time applying. He’s obviously an Aberdeen supporter. 
question 1 of the interview “by ra way, big man, do you support ra Gers”

“no”

“WeLl, thanks for applying. We’ll be in touch”

 

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Fuck me.  VAR debate on Sportsound.

There are some positives, yes.  Taking too long.  Not consistent.  Changed player habits etc etc.

But apparently the Hearts penalty against Celtic was the biggest affront to humanity since Nuremberg 36.

And then enter Stuart Kettlewell who insists their goal last week should have stood.  Ok so far.  But then apparently Shinnie deliberately moves his hand (not his arm, his fucking hand!) and seemingly illegally hands the ball, causes a Motherwell collapse that will set them back 15 years whilst simultaneously assaulting Kettlewells closest relatives out of spite!

Just fuck off.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Finally had a chance to watch all of the weekends highlights properly.

Hadnt realised how poor our goal decision was.  They clearly think it’s Gartenman in the middle of the wall that’s offside, not Macdonald at the back.

Big decision in the circumstances but agree with others deserved nothing anyway.

Celtic pen.  As stonewall as at least two other Goldson instances this season.

Hun pen.  Hate agreeing with Stewart but you can’t send Beaton over to the monitor and only show him the contact bit and ignore the ball contact first.  Beaton actually stitched up there.

[Schapenneuker]

1 hour ago, strachanmcgheegoal said:

 

Celtic pen.  As stonewall as at least two other Goldson instances this season.

Hun pen.  Hate agreeing with Stewart but you can’t send Beaton over to the monitor and only show him the contact bit and ignore the ball contact first.  Beaton actually stitched up there.

As much as I hate saying this, I thought Beaton had a decent game under difficult circumstances yesterday. 

You're right to say that he got stitched up by Walsh and VAR with the hun penalty, because Beaton actually got the dive and the yellow card correct first time around. 

[WesthillWanderersFC]

4 minutes ago, Schapenneuker said:

As much as I hate saying this, I thought Beaton had a decent game under difficult circumstances yesterday. 

You're right to say that he got stitched up by Walsh and VAR with the hun penalty, because Beaton actually got the dive and the yellow card correct first time around. 

Well he should’ve had the courage to say to Walsh that he was sticking with his on field decision then.

Sadly these days, if there’s any contact they generally give a penalty. 
And as much as the hun Silva is a cheating wee pussy, there was contact. 

The biggest thing that annoys me is that there is clear evidence the referees apply the laws differently in the Glasgow Derby.

Tackles that would result in a yellow card in any other game, are not yellows in a Glasgow Derby, certainly not in the first 20-25 minutes. 
And the referees will be backed up by the co-comm saying it’s “sensible refereeing in a game like this”   
They are undoubtedly refereed to a different standard 

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Yes but it wasnt clear (to me anyway) if Beaton was shown Johnston contacting the ball first.  If Johnston is going to get a toe to that ball, as you expect a defender to do it’s going to be followed by contact, it’s inevitable.

In the good old days pre VAR if you got the ball it wasn’t a pen and if you didn’t it was.  Simples.

Taking a different event on same principles, Miovski didn’t get the penalty from Marshall because Marshall “got the ball” and the contact of Marshall’s fist to Miovski’s chin was apparently then considered inevitable.

I don’t think you can blame Beaton for that one especially having got the on field decision right himself.

[Matt Armstrong's Dog]

6 hours ago, strachanmcgheegoal said:

Finally had a chance to watch all of the weekends highlights properly.

Hadnt realised how poor our goal decision was.  They clearly think it’s Gartenman in the middle of the wall that’s offside, not Macdonald at the back.

Big decision in the circumstances but agree with others deserved nothing anyway.

Celtic pen.  As stonewall as at least two other Goldson instances this season.

Hun pen.  Hate agreeing with Stewart but you can’t send Beaton over to the monitor and only show him the contact bit and ignore the ball contact first.  Beaton actually stitched up there.

We were shafted min. If the attack is allowed to go into its second phase (which it was) there is no offside to be considered whatsoever as MacDonald, Gartenmann, and Miovski are all onside at this point.

If offside is to be awarded, it is for the linesman to award, not the VAR or match referee. The linesman had ample time to deduce if any infringement had occurred but he decided none had, therefore the goal should have stood. 

Anyway, yhe ref should have checked it for himself on the monitor instead of relying on a VAR have a wee word in his ear. Truly pitiful officialdom. 

[Schapenneuker]

Because Scottish football uses the 1970's betamax version of VAR, it was pretty much impossible to tell if he was offside or not from the angle they use. Offside is supposed to be a matter of fact, but given how fucking long they took to look at it, it's fairly obvious that it became a matter of conjecture and/or guessing. 

We benefitted from that in the league cup semi against Hibs. 

Both goals should have stood.