Legal Challenge To Scottish Uni Funding

[Big Man]

This dobber Phil Shiner (who is a solicitor in england):

 

 

Is set to launch a legal challenge against the current scottish university funding system, on the basis that it breaches the human rights of english students.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14607122

 

http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/aboutus.php

 

This is an effrontery - i hope the boy falls flat on his arse.

[Dazzler]

Such a stupid claim!

[The Boofon]

Such a stupid claim!

 

 

I'd have all students paying fees if I had my way. Not the same stupid amounts obviously but they need to put something back for the grants and stuff they get.

 

Student loans are a different thing altogether.

 

My missus spent 6 years at Uni and has a fearsome loan. Fortunately her job doesn't take her over the payback threshold so she doesn't have to pay anything back. I believe it still increases year after year in interest but as she's now a working mum she'll never go above the limit set.

 

Great for us, not so great for whoever is owe the money.

[dervish]

On this claim, hope it gets shot down (obviously).

 

On uni funding I do think:

 

1) It's important that anyone who has the ability and drive to achieve a degree and wants to should be able to. Not matter their background.

2) Going to university shouldn't be seen as a "lifestyle choice" so I'm not sure about funding for what I'd term jolly degrees for "fun" with no strategy for how this be used later and would benefit society.

 

On 1. just because someones dad is a street cleaner doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to go.

However on 2. the same street cleaner shouldn't be paying taxes for some minted toff to study art history then never use it (my then gf (now EX*) did something similar, at St Andrews ... as did 90+% of her friends none getting jobs after 2 years).

 

My view is that funding should enable social mobility but also be targeted at supporting society.

 

EDIT: *

[SheepieBaaBaa]

I'd have all students paying fees if I had my way. Not the same stupid amounts obviously but they need to put something back for the grants and stuff they get.

 

Student loans are a different thing altogether.

 

My missus spent 6 years at Uni and has a fearsome loan. Fortunately her job doesn't take her over the payback threshold so she doesn't have to pay anything back. I believe it still increases year after year in interest but as she's now a working mum she'll never go above the limit set.

 

Great for us, not so great for whoever is owe the money.

 

Actually, I'd have no fees and higher entry qualifications for uni. That would then stop people like your wife taking student loans, getting a university education and then wasting it by popping out sproggs and getting a sh*te paying job that doesn't need a degree.

 

Not trying to be overly offensive, but that's a funded university place for someone who might have used it gone begging.

 

f**king hate that... remember one girl I knew was told that she needed to improve her grades (and attendance), I heard her talking to her mates syaing "oh, i don't care, I'm going to have kids anyway"... f**king farcical. Why bother going to Uni/College if you've no intention of doing well and using it in the job market, or at least for the benefit of society. Socially acceptable version of sponging off the dole for those kind of f**kers.

 

and before someone comes back with "don't you think everyone deserves higher education?" .. the answer is NO I don't.

[Monkey]

I actually think the guy has a point.

 

Why should students from the EU get free Uni places in Scotland when students from the rest of the UK don't. It should be the same for both, whether that is free education or they all have to pay.

 

There must be a greater benefit to a UK student getting funding than a non UK one, at the end of the degree period if both return "home" then at least the UK student will be paying back into the UK tax system even if they are now back living in Newcastle, Newry or Neath, unlike the EU student who is back working in Barcelona, Berlin or Bologna and paying nothing back to the UK. There must also be a higher chance of a UK student staying in Scotland after their degree as well.

 

If nothing else this case should force the SNP to change the policy one way or another.

[The Boofon]

Actually, I'd have no fees and higher entry qualifications for uni. That would then stop people like your wife taking student loans, getting a university education and then wasting it by popping out sproggs and getting a sh*te paying job that doesn't need a degree.

 

Not trying to be overly offensive, but that's a funded university place for someone who might have used it gone begging.

 

f**king hate that... remember one girl I knew was told that she needed to improve her grades (and attendance), I heard her talking to her mates syaing "oh, i don't care, I'm going to have kids anyway"... f**king farcical. Why bother going to Uni/College if you've no intention of doing well and using it in the job market, or at least for the benefit of society. Socially acceptable version of sponging off the dole for those kind of f**kers.

 

and before someone comes back with "don't you think everyone deserves higher education?" .. the answer is NO I don't.

 

 

Cracker. I'll tell my High School teacher wife who needed a degree for her profession that she's got a sh*te paying job because of popping out sprogs.

 

Maybe if you engage your brain a little before ranting you'd find out that she's not avoiding paying back the fees and works 3 days a week instead of 5 due to school cuts and not by choice.

 

I'll also tell her that the years she did work and pay back the loan were wasted as she could have sat on her arse and did nothing instead of trying to help children get an education.

 

Nice of you to class working parents as similar to sponging off the dole and also teachers are not doing the job for the benefit of society.

 

What an arsehole you are.

 

Try thinking before you spout off you uneducated twat.

 

You could be doing with some of the higher education you feel not everyone deserves.

[Big Man]

Actually, I'd have no fees and higher entry qualifications for uni. That would then stop people like your wife taking student loans, getting a university education and then wasting it by popping out sproggs and getting a sh*te paying job that doesn't need a degree.

 

Not trying to be overly offensive, but that's a funded university place for someone who might have used it gone begging.

 

f**king hate that... remember one girl I knew was told that she needed to improve her grades (and attendance), I heard her talking to her mates syaing "oh, i don't care, I'm going to have kids anyway"... f**king farcical. Why bother going to Uni/College if you've no intention of doing well and using it in the job market, or at least for the benefit of society. Socially acceptable version of sponging off the dole for those kind of f**kers.

 

and before someone comes back with "don't you think everyone deserves higher education?" .. the answer is NO I don't.

I don

[ebbe]

Cracker. I'll tell my High School teacher wife who needed a degree for her profession that she's got a sh*te paying job because of popping out sprogs.

 

Maybe if you engage your brain a little before ranting you'd find out that she's not avoiding paying back the fees and works 3 days a week instead of 5 due to school cuts and not by choice.

 

I'll also tell her that the years she did work and pay back the loan were wasted as she could have sat on her arse and did nothing instead of trying to help children get an education.

 

Nice of you to class working parents as similar to sponging off the dole and also teachers are not doing the job for the benefit of society.

 

What an arsehole you are.

 

Try thinking before you spout off you uneducated twat.

 

You could be doing with some of the higher education you feel not everyone deserves.

 

touchy.

[The Boofon]

touchy.

 

No wonder. Someone spouting off when they know nothing about the subject in hand gets on my goat.

 

Comparing getting thousands of pounds into debt (whether it's paid off or not) and getting a degree to being on the dole is enough to make anyone realise the boy's a grade A balloon.

[dervish]

I think our system is pretty fair based on the ability to pay back, not many people want to get low paying jobs deliberately. The exs friends just had families that minted that it didn't really matter, which annoyed me.

 

But maybe we should fund places rather than people, what I mean by that is fund the sort of things we need rather than what people want to do. If you want to go for "fun" no worries but you'll be paying for that unless you're the tippy top of your field and get one of the few art history or whatever funded places.

 

On the "point" of this the reason EU students get it free is that a Scottish student going to the EU will get it funded by the local governmental there (if their students do), it's reciprocal. In the case of England it is not. The definition used is that England is a constituent part of a EU nation and not a EU nation hence the rules can be bent to suit our entirely reasonable position.

[Big Man]

I think our system is pretty fair based on the ability to pay back, not many people want to get low paying jobs deliberately. The exs friends just had families that minted that it didn't really matter, which annoyed me.

 

But maybe we should fund places rather than people, what I mean by that is fund the sort of things we need rather than what people want to do. If you want to go for "fun" no worries but you'll be paying for that unless you're the tippy top of your field and get one of the few art history or whatever funded places.

 

 

Yes - sensible. I like.

 

Especially for proffessional degrees, such as medicine, dentistry, law, accountantcy, nursing, teaching,

 

Physical science and mathematics based degrees should be free for all however.

 

[Monkey]

I think our system is pretty fair based on the ability to pay back, not many people want to get low paying jobs deliberately. The exs friends just had families that minted that it didn't really matter, which annoyed me.

 

But maybe we should fund places rather than people, what I mean by that is fund the sort of things we need rather than what people want to do. If you want to go for "fun" no worries but you'll be paying for that unless you're the tippy top of your field and get one of the few art history or whatever funded places.

 

On the "point" of this the reason EU students get it free is that a Scottish student going to the EU will get it funded by the local governmental there (if their students do), it's reciprocal. In the case of England it is not. The definition used is that England is a constituent part of a EU nation and not a EU nation hence the rules can be bent to suit our entirely reasonable position.

 

This is the point though, what is the difference between Holland where they have fees and England?

 

If a Scottish student goes to either Holland or England he has to pay the same fees as a "local", if an English student comes to Scotland he has to pay but a Dutch student gets his education free. If it was reciprocal a Scottish student would get free education in Holland but they don't.

 

I think the outcome is that the SNP will reintroduce fees for all students and use this as an excuse for doing so rather than admitting that the abolition of fees was poorly thought out and unsustainable in the first place.

[dervish]

Well the worst example actually is Ireland, but it's part of EU rules. Either you don't want to be in the EU or this is the way. The reality is we in Scotland don't want to go the same way as in England, and to stop more "education tourists" it has to be this way. In England it's going to be horrendously expensive for the government too:

 

Around 50,000 places, average (£8k uni fees + £3k loans (low side) for 3 years = 33k per student) or adding 1.7bn debt per intake each year... to be repaid "when possible" over a long, long period. Compound that over the what 25 yr (?) repayment period and it's going to add up to an insane amount. They haven't done their sums on this, the government is a joke.

 

Forgot to add my final point, out way is actually a lot cheaper for the government too hence more sustainable.

 

Also actually just noticed this:

 

Those studying in England, where fees are estimated to average £8,630 next year, should expect to finish university with debts of almost £59,100

link

With about 3/4 owed to basically the government so actually using better figures would seem to be... £2.25 bn each intake, each year or the equiv of nearly 10% of the entire scottish budget.

[SheepieBaaBaa]

No wonder. Someone spouting off when they know nothing about the subject in hand gets on my goat.

 

Comparing getting thousands of pounds into debt (whether it's paid off or not) and getting a degree to being on the dole is enough to make anyone realise the boy's a grade A balloon.

 

The way you put it at first it sounded like you were proud to be not paying it back.....

 

Uneducated?? Me ? Dream on you spastic....

Also, you didn't say , my wife the teacher who works 3 days a week... you just said doesn't earn enough to repay.

 

Getting a loan which you don't pay back??? You're right, it's not comparable to the dole. It's worse! At least dole spongers don't try to claim moral high ground for taking other peoples money.... balloon indeed!!!!

[SheepieBaaBaa]

I don

[The Boofon]

The way you put it at first it sounded like you were proud to be not paying it back.....

 

Uneducated?? Me ? Dream on you spastic....

Also, you didn't say , my wife the teacher who works 3 days a week... you just said doesn't earn enough to repay.

 

Getting a loan which you don't pay back??? You're right, it's not comparable to the dole. It's worse! At least dole spongers don't try to claim moral high ground for taking other peoples money.... balloon indeed!!!!

 

 

Nice.

 

As I didn't say "my wife the teacher who works 3 days a week" you shouldn't have dived in trying to cast all manner of crap about taking a Uni place that should have went to someone more deserving.

 

She'd pay it back in a heartbeat if she was working full time and indeed made inroads in it while she was doing that.

 

Oh and she went to Uni with 5 A's so pretty sure she managed to get a deserved place and not some Mickey Mouse course.

 

Anyway I've had my rant.

 

I'm sure you feel strongly about all of this though with your rant.

 

Just to clarify are you saying that my wife is worse than a dole sponger because she works as a teacher and therefore doesn't make enough money to repay a student loan?

 

I'm not going to be annoyed about it I just want clarity.

 

Take your time though. Don't dive in all guns blazing again. You made a big enough tit of yourself first time round.

[dervish]

Somehow I have a sense that most people in this thread are vigorously agreeing, but not sure how long the country would last without kids being born...

 

Apparently Ireland charge EU students some kinda "service charge" to get round the EU rules. Hopefully we can apply the same to stop having to fund EU students too.

[SheepieBaaBaa]

Nice.

 

As I didn't say "my wife the teacher who works 3 days a week" you shouldn't have dived in trying to cast all manner of crap about taking a Uni place that should have went to someone more deserving.

 

She'd pay it back in a heartbeat if she was working full time and indeed made inroads in it while she was doing that.

 

Oh and she went to Uni with 5 A's so pretty sure she managed to get a deserved place and not some Mickey Mouse course.

 

Anyway I've had my rant.

 

I'm sure you feel strongly about all of this though with your rant.

 

Just to clarify are you saying that my wife is worse than a dole sponger because she works as a teacher and therefore doesn't make enough money to repay a student loan?

 

I'm not going to be annoyed about it I just want clarity.

 

Take your time though. Don't dive in all guns blazing again. You made a big enough tit of yourself first time round.

 

 

No... I wasn't talking about your wife specifically. No with 5 A's clearly she isn't taking an undeserved place and is clearly being selfless in pursuing a career in teaching despite the challenges of that career (overwork and underpaid etc. etc.).

 

I did go on the offensive due to the wording of your initial post, but did make an error in filling in the gaps with assumptions.

 

HOWEVER, if university places weren't so easy to come by, and there weren't so many wasters and tossers taking university places, maybe teachers would get more respect, better pay, and the whole basis of this argument would never have arisen.

 

Your wife is an admirable minority in a system that makes university a practical alternative to the dole for those with only slighty above average (or possibly even slightly below average these days) intelligence.

 

The other reason why I went on the offensive was the support of fees... I think fees are a terrible idea as they wont raise standards, they'll just mean that mediocre middle class kidds will be more likely to get a higher education than smart working class kids. That is something I can never agree with.

[SheepieBaaBaa]

Somehow I have a sense that most people in this thread are vigorously agreeing, but not sure how long the country would last without kids being born...

 

Apparently Ireland charge EU students some kinda "service charge" to get round the EU rules. Hopefully we can apply the same to stop having to fund EU students too.

 

 

Just to be clear I wasn't talking about working mothers, I was talking about a very specific example that I've seen repeated of a woman who was at Uni to "fill in time" until she had kids, and then intended to be a full time mum for the next 18+ years. How can that be a decent state of affairs? That's just taking the piss.

 

At the very least, have the kids and then go to Uni afterwards. Unless you're going to study "Cultural History" or some such, in which case it's just a general p**s take regardless of when you study it.

[The Boofon]

No... I wasn't talking about your wife specifically. No with 5 A's clearly she isn't taking an undeserved place and is clearly being selfless in pursuing a career in teaching despite the challenges of that career (overwork and underpaid etc. etc.).

 

I did go on the offensive due to the wording of your initial post, but did make an error in filling in the gaps with assumptions.

 

HOWEVER, if university places weren't so easy to come by, and there weren't so many wasters and tossers taking university places, maybe teachers would get more respect, better pay, and the whole basis of this argument would never have arisen.

 

Your wife is an admirable minority in a system that makes university a practical alternative to the dole for those with only slighty above average (or possibly even slightly below average these days) intelligence.

 

The other reason why I went on the offensive was the support of fees... I think fees are a terrible idea as they wont raise standards, they'll just mean that mediocre middle class kidds will be more likely to get a higher education than smart working class kids. That is something I can never agree with.

 

 

Thanks. Glad we're back on speaking terms. I'll call the wife off now.

 

I agree that University fees are something that needs to be in place but they should if possible also be on a sliding scale with regards to background etc.

 

Come from a piss poor background and the fees are minimal. come from a better off background and you pay more.

 

Meens (sic) tested if you like. It also does need to be education related. Someone scraping into Uni with 2B's and a C is likely to do far less well than a Triple A rated student.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that there are far too many easy option Uni courses these days. Christ I'm sure you could do a David Beckham degree in some English college a few years ago.

 

Mental.

[SheepieBaaBaa]

Thanks. Glad we're back on speaking terms. I'll call the wife off now.

 

I agree that University fees are something that needs to be in place but they should if possible also be on a sliding scale with regards to background etc.

 

Come from a piss poor background and the fees are minimal. come from a better off background and you pay more.

 

Meens (sic) tested if you like. It also does need to be education related. Someone scraping into Uni with 2B's and a C is likely to do far less well than a Triple A rated student.

 

I wholeheartedly agree that there are far too many easy option Uni courses these days. Christ I'm sure you could do a David Beckham degree in some English college a few years ago.

 

Mental.

 

Groovy...

 

Hoope we don't have to hug now though?

 

Chalk it up as a heated agreement and all that .

[spamspamspam]

Education should be free for everyone.

 

Exams should be made a lot harder though so only the top 10-20% of people pass with A's and then go to uni. The rest should go back to apprenticeships etc.

 

Uni's like Robert Gordons just hand out apprenticeship degrees anyway. Most people that go to RGU leave with a degree and a years work experience, their degree is obsolete though the moment they graduate. There would be no difference at all between someone leaving uni with a degree in Business Studies after 4 years and 50K spent that there would be if they got a job in an office, sent on courses while working and taught all they were needed to know in the work place.

 

The Tory government made this problem by allowing the likes of RGU to have university status when they allowed privatised education and scrapped the grant system, then Blair came along and decided it was every bodies right to go no matter what the cost, thick as pig sh*t or not but when he realised it was going to cost he took in loans... now we are all having to pay for a load of kids who have no idea what they actually want to do when they are 22 so they are forced into taking some pissy course about womans studies and psychology just to end up washing f**king dishes in a hospital for the rest of their days because their education was a complete waste of time and money, both theirs and mine.

 

The system needs overhauled... Doesnt change the fact that the guy mentioned in the OP is a tool of the highest order though. You'd think someone who was educated to the level of solicitor would understand the concept of devolution... Rich prick with too much time and money but probably doesnt want to pay anything towards his kids education.

[SheepieBaaBaa]

Education should be free for everyone.

 

Exams should be made a lot harder though so only the top 10-20% of people pass with A's and then go to uni. The rest should go back to apprenticeships etc.

 

Uni's like Robert Gordons just hand out apprenticeship degrees anyway. Most people that go to RGU leave with a degree and a years work experience, their degree is obsolete though the moment they graduate. There would be no difference at all between someone leaving uni with a degree in Business Studies after 4 years and 50K spent that there would be if they got a job in an office, sent on courses while working and taught all they were needed to know in the work place.

 

The Tory government made this problem by allowing the likes of RGU to have university status when they allowed privatised education and scrapped the grant system, then Blair came along and decided it was every bodies right to go no matter what the cost, thick as pig sh*t or not but when he realised it was going to cost he took in loans... now we are all having to pay for a load of kids who have no idea what they actually want to do when they are 22 so they are forced into taking some pissy course about womans studies and psychology just to end up washing f**king dishes in a hospital for the rest of their days because their education was a complete waste of time and money, both theirs and mine.

 

The system needs overhauled... Doesnt change the fact that the guy mentioned in the OP is a tool of the highest order though. You'd think someone who was educated to the level of solicitor would understand the concept of devolution... Rich prick with too much time and money but probably doesnt want to pay anything towards his kids education.

 

The killing off, of on the job training and apprenticeships was and is a crying shame. It's to the point where these days working your way up through the ranks is being made nigh on impossible. The assumption seems to be that since even idiots can get degrees, then anyone without a degree must be borderline retarded.

 

When I left school I started as a trainee and was very happy and getting on great until I found out that "graduate trainee" (some of whom I wouldn't have trusted to sit on the toilet the right way up), were coming in on a higher salary, and getting fast streamed for promotions and good roles despite me being a top performer.

 

That's when I said "f**k that for a game of soldiers" and went to Uni myself.

 

It's a joke and a tragedy that the system works that way.... I am very happy with the career I've had since leaving uni, but am equally sure I could have done just as well without the degree (it was just a door opener).

[dervish]

Education should be free for everyone.

 

Exams should be made a lot harder though so only the top 10-20% of people pass with A's and then go to uni. The rest should go back to apprenticeships etc.

 

Uni's like Robert Gordons just hand out apprenticeship degrees anyway. Most people that go to RGU leave with a degree and a years work experience, their degree is obsolete though the moment they graduate. There would be no difference at all between someone leaving uni with a degree in Business Studies after 4 years and 50K spent that there would be if they got a job in an office, sent on courses while working and taught all they were needed to know in the work place.

 

The Tory government made this problem by allowing the likes of RGU to have university status when they allowed privatised education and scrapped the grant system, then Blair came along and decided it was every bodies right to go no matter what the cost, thick as pig sh*t or not but when he realised it was going to cost he took in loans... now we are all having to pay for a load of kids who have no idea what they actually want to do when they are 22 so they are forced into taking some pissy course about womans studies and psychology just to end up washing f**king dishes in a hospital for the rest of their days because their education was a complete waste of time and money, both theirs and mine.

 

The system needs overhauled... Doesnt change the fact that the guy mentioned in the OP is a tool of the highest order though. You'd think someone who was educated to the level of solicitor would understand the concept of devolution... Rich prick with too much time and money but probably doesnt want to pay anything towards his kids education.

 

Hold on... where does the RGU agro from? I've graduated from quite few establishments and trust me RGU was the hardest by far (includes Edinburgh and most of the other "best" unis in Scotland). It's also the best in the country for graduate employment... so probably could be considered the least pissy in the UK.

[madjockmcferson]

This dobber Phil Shiner (who is a solicitor in england):

 

 

Is set to launch a legal challenge against the current scottish university funding system, on the basis that it breaches the human rights of english students.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-14607122

 

http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/aboutus.php

 

This is an effrontery - i hope the boy falls flat on his arse.

 

They can go f**k themselves. In what world is free education a bad thing? We have a budget, we spend it how we want ... now f**k off.

[Big Man]

On the bbc new website's discussion thing, in response to someone suggesting that enlgish students are jealous of scottish students free education, the following:

 

Jealous of what exactly?.

Your little sectarian war going on in Glasgow,your NED'S or the third world life expectancy?.

 

You do realise your independence will involve your share of the debt the UK required and you are just another Greece on independence.

 

[madjockmcferson]

On the bbc new website's discussion thing, in response to someone suggesting that enlgish students are jealous of scottish students free education, the following:

 

 

 

 

I have no idea how scotland would do as an independent country, but any country that doesn't want to control itself has something wrong with it.

[RUL]

3rd world life expectancy must have changed drastically, they purchased some deep fat fryers?

[phoenix]

I've nae time for this education lark.

 

Far his it got us?