Italy Back To Fascism

[Ke1t]

I spotted that democratically elected Berlusconi has stepped down in favour of unelected economist Mario Monti, a guy more interested in corporate health than social health.

 

Is this Western Europe's first Fascist leader since Franco?

 

I'm also trying to think of an economically appointed Western leader in recent years, as opposed to one who has been elected via the democratic process.

 

Realistically Democracy is gone in Italy, no-one asked the Italian people if they wanted Monti... and the people certainly didn't vote him into office. So you now have a guy appointed by the banks and the politicians, with total disregard for the Democratic process. Monti has been appointed rather than elected.... I'm having a hard time believing this. I realise there's the formality of the parliament ratifying his selection, but doubt there will be much in the way of obstacles placed in his way.

 

I'm fucking amazed at the ease with which this is happening, and wondering how long before this 'crisis' is used as reason to remove the democratic process in other European countries.

[Fletcher Christian]

Realistically Democracy is gone in Italy...

 

It is gone all over the Euro zone, and has been for some time. Remember a few years ago when Ireland held a referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon, the people voted "No", and they had to go back and do it again, until they got a "Yes" vote.

[Dynamo]

Only one ruler of Europe - money.

 

Governments will come and go at its discretion.

[Ke1t]

I saw Merkel is saying that Europe is in for it's toughest period since WW2.

 

Feel sorry for people growing up nowadays... everything is fucked, and it seems your liberties are about to become unnecessary and bothersome to the people now running the western 'democracies'.

 

Think we're headed towards a depression... but the fuckers at the top like their own personal wealth too much to even attempt to fix things. They'll sacrifice the working and middle classes in order to maintain the status quo (so far as the status quo pertains to the rich having all the money and the working and middle classes going fuck themseves).

 

I don't care how much you earn... if you work for a living you'll be the new peasant class.

[E-P-K]

Was anything learned from 2008, was it fuck.

 

 

Then it was banks over exposed due to 120% mortgages being dished out to all and sundry , now we have actual countries on the brink of bankruptcy due to over spending.

 

Top economist Arsene Wegner told us all in pre season, that Europe will be fucked in 2012, and it is looking that way,

 

Time to stock up with tinned food, and buy a gun, along with a black widow catapult.

[Chrisyboy81]

Was anything learned from 2008, was it fuck.

 

 

Then it was banks over exposed due to 120% mortgages being dished out to all and sundry , now we have actual countries on the brink of bankruptcy due to over spending.

 

Top economist Arsene Wegner told us all in pre season, that Europe will be fucked in 2012, and it is looking that way,

 

Time to stock up with tinned food, and buy a gun, along with a black widow catapult.

Any excuse to buy a black widow has got to be a good thing.

[Dandie1992]

Fit's Belarus up to these days? They still nae a dictatorship on America's Axis of Evil list?

[RUL]

Did labour not do the same when blair resigned and brown took over?

[E-P-K]

Did labour not do the same when blair resigned and brown took over?

 

Brown was Blairs number 2, Monti was not a politician per se.

[Ke1t]

Did labour not do the same when blair resigned and brown took over?

 

Transition of power within a party isn't uncommon. It happened with Blair-Brown and it happened with Thatcher-Major in Britain (But bear in mind that in Britain you are electing a Party, not the leader of the party, so in that respect all British PMs are 'unelected).... there are mechanisms in every country to allow for transition of power, and this would be no different, however Monti is a 'corporatist' and has been selected on the basis of his connections with almost every major business in Italy, not to mention his connections to Goldman Sachs.

 

It's not the mechanism by which Monti has been elected that makes him a fascist, though said mechanism... forced as it was by Italian corporations... doesn't help. It's the man himself who is a fascist, more recently termed 'Corporatism'... it's like calling torture "enhanced interrogation", it's still torture in the same way a 'Corporatist' is a nicer way of saying Fascist.

 

His primary concern is corporate interest, and his policies (when he forms his new government) will reflect his 'corporatism'

 

There's the erroneous belief that Fascism is all about militarism and everyone wearing the same colour shirt. Or that Fascism is about gassing Jews. Or about invading Abyssinia.... when in fact those are the things that Fascists have done, rather than the things that define a fascist.

 

Corporatism is Fascism, and the unelected Monti is a Corporatist.

 

As, incidentaly, is Greece's new President... Papademos served in the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, and the Bank of Greece.

 

What makes the empowerment of Fascists even more bizarre, to me, is that these guys... as part of the monetary mechanism... are the EXACT same guys who got the western economies INTO this clusterfuck.. and Greece and Italy have basically just given them ALL the power to make economic decisions.

 

Kinda like putting a child molester in charge of a nursery and telling him to "take care" of the kids.

 

Does anyone actually believe that their 'solutions' are in any way whatsoever going to impact the rich?

 

Any measures taken will be directly aimed at fucking the middle and working classes of every bit of loose change.. and if or when the situation improves, and the rich are far richer, the poor are far poorer and the corporations are far more powerful... if and when that happens they'll be hailed as saviours by the media., and the net result will be more people living in borderline poverty, with less civil liberties, at any time since the Magna Carta was signed.

[RabidGiraffe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but about 5 - 10 years ago Brazil and Argentina were in similar dire straits economy wise. The IMF tried to impose rules on them to force so-called austerity measures (i.e. stop spending money on the less well off and let the coporates do what they want). Both countries told then to GTF and as well as not fucking the poor both now have economies able to survive and thrive in the current climate.

[Ke1t]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but about 5 - 10 years ago Brazil and Argentina were in similar dire straits economy wise. The IMF tried to impose rules on them to force so-called austerity measures (i.e. stop spending money on the less well off and let the coporates do what they want). Both countries told then to GTF and as well as not fucking the poor both now have economies able to survive and thrive in the current climate.

 

Pretty sure Brazil did exactly that.... not sure about Argentina though.

 

We've entered a period of time where the workers are being blamed for economic downturn, and the corporations are being touted as the only entities that can 'save' us. In the US they've pretty effectively demonised the unions, and the biggest employer is Walmart... a company with a less than sterling history of treating its workers like human beings.

 

I genuinely wonder which will be the first 'Democracy' to see revolt.

[muttondressedaslamb]

Maybe democracy doesn't work in these situations?

 

What's the alternative? We don't have a mobilised population like those in South America e.g. look at how these public sector strikes have totally split the nation thus playing into Cameron et al's hands.

 

Anyway I totally agree Kelt, soon there will be no middle class, there will be the haves and the have nots. I'm sure we'll all be the have nots, apart from Boofon.

[RabidGiraffe]

Pretty sure Brazil did exactly that.... not sure about Argentina though.

 

We've entered a period of time where the workers are being blamed for economic downturn, and the corporations are being touted as the only entities that can 'save' us. In the US they've pretty effectively demonised the unions, and the biggest employer is Walmart... a company with a less than sterling history of treating its workers like human beings.

 

I genuinely wonder which will be the first 'Democracy' to see revolt.

 

Don't get me started on Walmart, I refuse to buy anything in Asda because it's owned by those cunts. And because it's Asda.

 

Interesting question about revolution in our western so-called democracies. Enough people will need to be sufficiently fucked over in order for them to take to the streets. If the coporatists as you call them can keep the balance right, all they need to do is keep enough of the population a mixture of reasonably content and too scared to rock the boat.

 

It's been a long time simce we had any genuine democratic choice in the UK. Since the advent of New Labour there have been no competing political ideologies, only the choice of which lying bastard do you distrust the least. Then low and behold they turn out to be a lying bastard who fuck you over, generally in favour of the corporates.

[terenceandphilip]

Its the lack of penetrating thought across the board that gets me. Mind boggling.

 

 

Typical news story in the past 10 years, with the welsh mannie that does the 6pm BBC news:

 

"Good news if you're a home owner, house prices have risen another 7% this week".

 

 

Jesus, where to begin? Good news for who? How did these instanity rocket fuel prices come about? The German chancellor appears on newsnight in 2007 and questions the uk's attitude to credit and debt and tries to politely point out the problems inherent in offering people 6 times their salary with 100% mortgages - Paxman shouts him down. Irrelevant apparently.

 

 

 

The blind and greedy lead the blind and greedy. It was probably ever thus and the human race is doomed to failure. Those who talk loudest and think 'quickest' get to 'succeed'. Its all a crock of f3cking shit anyway, but you've no choice other than to play along.

 

 

I blame Thatcher for everything.

[tup]

I think folk need cracked down on by their governments, too many folk live in a bubble, I'd welcome a savage war with national conscription as a means of sorting the wheat fae the chaff.

 

If it meant that all these mullet headed saps with drainpipe jeans, I-pods and manbags were killed in combat, a concept utterly alien to them, then I'm all for it, and society would benefit hugely long term, as normal folk would survive and thrive.

[Jonty]

Pretty sure Brazil did exactly that.... not sure about Argentina though.

 

We've entered a period of time where the workers are being blamed for economic downturn, and the corporations are being touted as the only entities that can 'save' us. In the US they've pretty effectively demonised the unions, and the biggest employer is Walmart... a company with a less than sterling history of treating its workers like human beings.

 

I genuinely wonder which will be the first 'Democracy' to see revolt.

 

Was Argentina that defaulted on their debts, and refloated their currency that had been pegged to the dollar. The resulting devaluation of the peso caused massive short term problems; long term the economy recovered as it became more competitive and it's total debt, denominated in it's own currency, had shrunk.

 

After a few more months of the Greeks being bullied by the EU, they will realise that Brussels is a modern Canute, swimming against an economic tide it can't control and will probably do the same. 7-2 on at least one country leaving the euro before the end of 2012 - generous odds to say the least.

[BrianFaePerth]

The problem is also the ignorance of Joe Public.

 

Yer average Noggie has watched all this while barely being able to contain their laughter. The way it's being told is this: Norway has enough money to bail out Europe in one fell swoop, though to do so would be suicidal for us, so fuck the donkey botherers. At the same time, we're being telt that swarthy southern European types might come up here and work for low wages, therefore lowering oor own pay, while they ride around on Vespas stealing handbags.

 

But, the economies of the world are intertwined far too much for us to escape. The only people unemployed here are the Buck types, anyone else has got work. But soon enough, orders will dry up, exports will go down, and it won't be long afore fowk start getting "permittering", which means ye get temporarily layed-off, but with 60% of yer pay. This will likely lead to companies going bust and fowk losing their jobs.

 

All the same, when an economist showed up for one of these online chats, all fowk cared about was how would this affect the value of their hooses. This is the same short-sighted viewpoint that was prevalent in the UK and other countries afore 2008.

[Terrorfex]

Pretty sure Brazil did exactly that.... not sure about Argentina though.

 

We've entered a period of time where the workers are being blamed for economic downturn, and the corporations are being touted as the only entities that can 'save' us. In the US they've pretty effectively demonised the unions, and the biggest employer is Walmart... a company with a less than sterling history of treating its workers like human beings.

 

I genuinely wonder which will be the first 'Democracy' to see revolt.

 

Argentina had the option of creating a new currency, and having the time to implement it in stages. Also, they did some pretty fundamentally illegal things on their way to "thriving". Putting a hold on citizens' wealth - in other words making it illegal (and impossible) for your average Pedro to withdraw more than token amounts from their bank accounts - and, more devastatingly, unilaterally converting savings into the new currency and wiping out enormous amounts of (other people's) money in a single swoop. The kind of stuff that would bring down a government (and it did) if it were tried elsewhere.

[BrianFaePerth]

Argentina had the option of creating a new currency, and having the time to implement it in stages. Also, they did some pretty fundamentally illegal things on their way to "thriving". Putting a hold on citizens' wealth - in other words making it illegal (and impossible) for your average Pedro to withdraw more than token amounts from their bank accounts - and, more devastatingly, unilaterally converting savings into the new currency and wiping out enormous amounts of (other people's) money in a single swoop. The kind of stuff that would bring down a government (and it did) if it were tried elsewhere.

 

The same was done successfully in North Korea. Say what ye want about the Dear Leader, but he gets the joab done.

[phoenix]

Fascism is always lurking , the mistake the Germans made was making it so 'in your face'.

 

That Adrian Beecroft in this country sounds like a fascist to me , with Steve Hilton not far behind.

 

Tony Benn has frequently told us that ol' GB tarts herself up as a democracy but that there's a lot going on , unobserved by most , that would indicate otherwise. I mean we are better than many countries but hardly the finished article.

 

Of course , we might use the word 'fascist' too easily. The way the rich and bankers are taking more than their fair share at everyone else's expense is a symptom but we do not yet have brown or blackshirts going around demanding money with menaces , unless you count the Utilities Companies. Neither do we have squads bullying homosexuals , gypsies , the mentally unstable nor ethnic minorities.

 

It's close like Kelt but mebbe it's desperate measures for desperate times.....but Fascism? I think that remark resembles Tom Watson's when he suggested that James Murdoch was a mafia overlord. He was chastised on most fronts for being a little too 'over the top' on that one , altho' still a hero of mine.

 

 

[Crossbow]

Fascism is always lurking , the mistake the Germans made was making it so 'in your face'.

 

That Adrian Beecroft in this country sounds like a fascist to me , with Steve Hilton not far behind.

 

Tony Benn has frequently told us that ol' GB tarts herself up as a democracy but that there's a lot going on , unobserved by most , that would indicate otherwise. I mean we are better than many countries but hardly the finished article.

 

Of course , we might use the word 'fascist' too easily. The way the rich and bankers are taking more than their fair share at everyone else's expense is a symptom but we do not yet have brown or blackshirts going around demanding money with menaces , unless you count the Utilities Companies. Neither do we have squads bullying homosexuals , gypsies , the mentally unstable nor ethnic minorities.

 

It's close like Kelt but mebbe it's desperate measures for desperate times.....but Fascism? I think that remark resembles Tom Watson's when he suggested that James Murdoch was a mafia overlord. He was chastised on most fronts for being a little too 'over the top' on that one , altho' still a hero of mine.

 

Fascism is always a danger - and in many ways all states are fascist - the needs of the state outway the needs of the indvivual and any one individual who breaks the rules will find out soon anough how well the wheels of the state will come to grind them down. We agree with this when the state is providing largesse like a health service or sewers but less so when they are forcing us to do without. Fascism to some extent is in the eyes of the beholder. That the leader of a state can change without a demonstrative will of the commuity is not in itself fascism. In any event the demos is a variable feast anyway.

 

We have the politics we deserve and Orwell in 1984 was not far from the truth - we are the proles and are fed such information that keeps us in line whilst supporting the governors. It was ever thus. It may be that anarchism is the only alternative - though I do like Churchills quote

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried" - I don't agree with everything he said but at the least it gived us all a (weak) voice. PR would have strengthened and broadened it at the cost to the established parties in my mind - maybe one day.