Celtic Avoid Sectarian Charges

[OddJob]

Celtic in the clear

 

CELTIC were last night cleared of any wrong-doing after fans sang pro-IRA chants.

The Parkhead club were investigated by the SPL after Strathclyde Police reported sections of the support for 'illicit' chanting during last month's game with Hibs.

 

League chiefs admitted fans were guilty of singing offensive songs, but stressed Celtic had done everything they could to prevent it.

A spokesman said: "It is not disputed a small number of Celtic fans engaged in singing and chanting in support of the IRA.

"Such behaviour is unacceptable and unwelcome at SPL matches. It's noted that Celtic has repeatedly condemned such activity, most recently by chief executive Peter Lawwell and manager Neil Lennon.

 

"It is important such public condemnation should continue."

 

League bosses opened their investigation against Celtic after the SPL's match delegate included a complaint from the match commander on the day.

The SPL spokesman added: "It has been established, through the investigation, that Celtic took all practicable steps to minimise the likelihood of unacceptable conduct occurring and, where it did occur, to assist in the prosecution of offenders."

I particularly liked the emboldened line. How the fuck can a clubs fans be found guilty of this yet escape punishment? Fucking joke!!!!

[Dynamo]

It'll be funny if UEFA punish them now.

 

I'd imagine the songs will have been the same/similar.

 

It just shows the SPL up for what it really is - a league for the OLD FIRM to do as they please, and the others are just a hinderance.

[BillShankly]

Aye but Lennon and Lawell told them not to sing the bad songs so its all good.

[Dynamo]

Simply if Celtic were serious about sorting out the section that sing all these pro IRA songs they would leave it empty.

 

But they don't care. Publicly they'll condemn chants, because they have to, but privately they won't be wanting to alienate such a large percentage of their fan base.

 

I don't care what they sing. Pro IRA songs or not, they're still scumbags.

[zander]

The list of offences is extensive but includes disorderly conduct, damage to the fabric of a stadium, using threatening or abusive words towards any group of gender, colour or race, nationality, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, transgender identity or disability. Also included are chants or songs of a racist, sectarian or of grossly offensive nature.There is no list of banned songs or chants but the Match Commander, SPL Delegate, referee or the opposition club may report any of the above.Sanctions against the club can mean an official warning, a fine, ordering the game to be replayed or as a last resort the loss of points..

 

So take it this time is the official warning or is that just every time?

[NorthernLights24]

So take it this time is the official warning or is that just every time?

 

I very much doubt it. From what I've heard from the likes of Doncaster they'll never punish the Old Firm as in their eyes they are taking enough actions to absolve themselves of any blame or guilt. A complete and utter joke.

[RUL]

Don't they pretty much encourage the irish pish by playing irish music and such like?

[OddJob]

Don't they pretty much encourage the irish pish by playing irish music and such like?

Aye, pretty much

[Dandyjam]

I particularly liked the emboldened line. How the fuck can a clubs fans be found guilty of this yet escape punishment? Fucking joke!!!!

 

SPL and that weasel Doncaster are spineless when it comes to the old firm. I'm not surprised by this.

[V for Vendetta]

This was always going to be the case.

 

The SPL have never and will never take action against this sort of thing. Doncaster has admitted as much. As long as clubs appear to have taken every possible action to prevent it, ie asking fans not to do it then thats it job done as far as the SPL are concerned. At the end of the day the SPL is just a closed shop league created for the OF and the sycophantic hangers on like Hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd and of course, or very own Afc. Its a meaningless puppet organisation which is why they employ a complete fucking muppet like Neil Doncaster. I mean c'mon the guy is a fcking waste of space. He's just a stupid smug grin for hire.

 

The SFA should really do something about this but unfortunately while I think Regan is a decent sort he is too busy fighting 100 years of "tradition" within his own organisation.

 

The Uefa investgation will find Celtic guilty but as a first offence in europe of this sort they will get a slap on the wrist or a very small fine. Rangers had 3 i think before reaching the point of being threatened with closed door games etc.

[Liam]

Am i not right in thinking that before the game and at half time at Pittodrie and all other SPL grounds, an announcement is read out about sectarian signing and the consequences such as fines, loss of points, games being replayed etc?

 

Why are we being given these consequences when Celtic continually break the rules, yet never get punished?

 

I personally would like to see uefa punish Celtic for it, and also punish the SFA for letting them off with it continually.

 

Doncaster is a spineless cunt. Its about time someone stood up to the old firm. This pish has to stop.

[deco_1985]

Even if, and I stress IF, Celtic and Rangers were doing everything in their power to stop this sort of singing, the morons would still do it. Dock them 5 points, and see the reaction. Anger, but I would bet that it would make a large percentage of these idiots stop singing their pish in the grounds. But doing that would involve the SPL having the balls to do it, will never happen! Does that mean we can sinng Ibrox disaster songs, Davie Cooper songs, In the wrong f*cking country (which fans have been charged over) songs, Dirty Orange B*stards etc etc, as long as Brown and Milne come out and say it's wrong?

[Ke1t]

What was the point of the investigation... in a league run for the benefit of the OF it's not like they're going to have to worry about stuff like consequences.

[V for Vendetta]

Am i not right in thinking that before the game and at half time at Pittodrie and all other SPL grounds, an announcement is read out about sectarian signing and the consequences such as fines, loss of points, games being replayed etc?

 

Why are we being given these consequences when Celtic continually break the rules, yet never get punished?

 

I personally would like to see uefa punish Celtic for it, and also punish the SFA for letting them off with it continually.

 

Doncaster is a spineless cunt. Its about time someone stood up to the old firm. This pish has to stop.

 

I believe the SFA are going to start to find they will be pulled up by Uefa and risk sanctions given the state of Rangers financially and the accessory to this that the SFA have become. Also the more often these 2 clubs are caught by Uefa the more likely uefa get tired of it and just take it out on the SFA. Its possible they could just threaten to ban ALL scottish clubs from europe for a year or similar - only then will the SFA be forced to act.

 

The SPL never will. Pointless them being asked to investigate as they have always taken this approach in the past.

 

Even if, and I stress IF, Celtic and Rangers were doing everything in their power to stop this sort of singing, the morons would still do it. Dock them 5 points, and see the reaction. Anger, but I would bet that it would make a large percentage of these idiots stop singing their pish in the grounds. But doing that would involve the SPL having the balls to do it, will never happen! Does that mean we can sinng Ibrox disaster songs, Davie Cooper songs, In the wrong f*cking country (which fans have been charged over) songs, Dirty Orange B*stards etc etc, as long as Brown and Milne come out and say it's wrong?

 

This was a charge brought by the police rather than anything the SPL did though.

Which really begs the question why the police were not taking a similar action when the IRA sympathisers were up to their usual nonsense? Thats the real issue here tbh.

The SPL are an irrelevance and its the Police and also the SFA we should really expect to act.

[barassie_afc]

Chants about the IRA are distasteful, didnt know they were being classified as sectarian , strange world

[Dandyesque]

Another topic I'm not going to get myself worked up about.

 

It's never going to change, so why bother commenting on it?

 

It's not the first time this will happen, and it won't be the last.

 

SPL isn't corrupt though, well run league and everyone is interested in how Scottish teams get on.

 

What a league it is. I love the SPL.

 

This

[Dandyesque]

Chants about the IRA are distasteful, didnt know they were being classified as sectarian , strange world

 

and this

[barassie_afc]

and this

 

I guess of your being pedantic Dandy it could be classified , but its not overtly sectarian, like Walter Smith Orange Bastard etc etc

[Dandyesque]

I guess of your being pedantic Dandy it could be classified , but its not overtly sectarian, like Walter Smith Orange Bastard etc etc

 

Although widely regarded as a Catholic organisation amongst the more "traditional" protestants in this country (and NI) they were/are a republican organisation first and foremost - You don't have to like them to see that.

 

However, if songs of that nature are banned, they should not be sung - sectarian or not.

[Frank Butcher]

League chiefs admitted fans were guilty of singing offensive songs, but stressed Celtic had done everything they could to prevent it.

 

How do they work that out ??

 

Spl Guy: So what are you doing to stamp out the singing??

 

Celtic Guy: We identified that a group called the Green Brigade where particulary partial to the odd sing song, So Neil Lennon pubicly called for the group to stop and even offered to meet them to discuss it, we also got the Record to put the story on its back page

 

Spl guy: Magnificent stuff, anything else?

 

Celtic Guy: Oh yeah we even gave the Green Brigade there own part of the stadium, most have season tickets and we sometimes meet up with them to talk about displays the group like to organise like last seasons Remembrance Day's one.

 

SPL guy: Excellent well you appear to be doing everything possible, just a shame you have no way of identifing these people and banning them like you really should, but I am sure if this was possible you would. Well done, keep up the good work

[NorthernLights24]

How do they work that out ??

 

Spl Guy: So what are you doing to stamp out the singing??

 

Celtic Guy: We identified that a group called the Green Brigade where particulary partial to the odd sing song, So Neil Lennon pubicly called for the group to stop and even offered to meet them to discuss it, we also got the Record to put the story on its back page

 

Spl guy: Magnificent stuff, anything else?

 

Celtic Guy: Oh yeah we even gave the Green Brigade there own part of the stadium, most have season tickets and we sometimes meet up with them to talk about displays the group like to organise like last seasons Remembrance Day's one.

 

SPL guy: Excellent well you appear to be doing everything possible, just a shame you have no way of identifing these people and banning them like you really should, but I am sure if this was possible you would. Well done, keep up the good work

 

Not sure if this was posted on here when it was first published last month. It does show up the likes of Doncaster and the rest for the spineless losers they are and their complete lack of balls when it comes to dealing with the Old Firm...

 

Days after UEFA opened a case against Celtic over alleged ‘illicit chanting’, the SPL revealed it was investigating the club over similar incidents in a match against Hibs three weeks ago. So why the delay, Tom English asks SPL executives Neil Doncaster and Ian Blair

 

What took you so long to announce that you were investigating Celtic for IRA chanting at the Hibs match last month?

 

Iain Blair: The question wasn’t asked before. Somebody asked the question and we answered it.

 

You announced it three weeks after the event and a few days after UEFA announced their own investigation into offensive chanting at Parkhead. It looked like you were forced into going public. Embarrassed into it.

 

Neil Doncaster: What happened was that there was a report to the match delegate, the match delegate reported it to us and the SPL are investigating it. That is what happened, irrespective of what people would like to believe happened. We don’t routinely go out and inform the world that we’re carrying out an investigation into any of our clubs.

 

The SPL looked weak, though. It was a PR horror show. Why didn’t you announce that you were investigating it three weeks earlier?

 

IB: The risk is that you end up with an awful lot of energy being expended in dealing with something that is not the issue. The issue is what happened at Celtic Park, so the energy and focus needs to be expended on that. For us then to have this PR machine dealing with it, we could spend all day every day dealing with speculative questions from the media. What can we say? Yes, we are investigating the issue. You then have 15 different newspapers asking what are you doing about it. Is that the best use of our time?

 

It might create a bun-fight but it would send a message out there that you are on top of this. The perception is that the SPL is soft on sectarianism and soft on offensive chanting.

 

ND: That might be the perception out there. I accept that may be the perception. I don’t accept that it’s the reality at all. That’s a very unfair way of characterising it.

 

Have you launched other investigations into sectarian or offensive chanting?

 

IB: Yes.

 

This season? Last season?

 

IB: Both. There’s probably been something like 65 games so far this season and I haven’t checked but I imagine that there has probably been three or four different occasions where there have been reports coming through on events that happened at games. I’ll need to check and get back to you.

 

But nothing ever happens, does it? You are controlled by the clubs so nothing is ever going to happen.

 

IB: It depends on what you mean by nothing happens...

 

No announcement that you’re investigating, no detail of who or what you are investigating, nobody found guilty of anything. Ever. Despite the repeated evidence of our own ears.

 

IB: We don’t believe in strict liability. The SPL does not think that’s fair.

 

Strict liability. A club cannot be held responsible for the actions of its fans as long as the club is seen to be doing all that it reasonably can to tackle sectarianism and offensive chanting...

 

ND. Yes. We have had the debate around this table over many years with the clubs about whether it’s fair to hold a club to account for things that it cannot control. And we don’t think it’s right.

 

Our rules are all about seeing that a club is doing all that it practically can to avoid unacceptable conduct from its fans.

 

So if a club can show they are making a bit of an effort, nothing can happen to these clubs or these supporters? UEFA are rubbish but at least they’re trying to do something to change things.

 

ND: Our clubs need to do all that is possible. Other competitions may take a different approach, they may simply hold a club liable for the actions of its supporters within its stadium. That’s a very, very difficult route to go down. People like to see things in black and white but it’s not the way the world is. There is excellent work going on, particularly at Celtic and Rangers, as regards anti-sectarian education but unfortunately it’s not as newsworthy as negative stories.

 

IB: I remember Peter [Lawwell] telling me that himself and Martin [bain] once went to a schools initiative about the two clubs coming together to go to schools to communicate an anti-sectarian message and they had generated some press interest but all the questions were about player contracts and nothing about the event itself. I don’t know how we change that.

 

ND: So to have a strict liability approach is not the right way forward. It’s unfair.

 

So UEFA is being unfair on Celtic? And has been unfair on Rangers in the past?

 

ND: It’s their competition and I don’t generally give out views on other competitions. They will have reasons for doing things the way they do.

 

But in this instance, to have strict liability to punish a club even though it has done everything that it reasonably could, I just think that’s wrong.

 

Ian, is UEFA wrong to pursue Celtic?

 

IB: Like Neil, I have a difficulty in seeing the justice in that absolute black and white approach that UEFA take. I don’t see that as justice. Sanctioning A for the actions of B when A has no control over B seems unjust.

 

Hang on, how does A have no control over B? A can say to B, you’ve been warned time and time again and you’re not coming in here anymore. Get lost...

 

IB: It can do, post hoc.

 

A has had loads of opportunities and A hasn’t bloody well done it.

 

ND: There is a good debate to be had about communication and the reality is that supporters are being banned by clubs who have identified unacceptable conduct. These things are occurring. I’m not sure we are as good at making that clear as we should.

 

Why would the SPL not announce it? Send a message out there...

 

ND: That’s for an individual club to do, but there is an appreciation around this table that we should perhaps be more on the front foot about communicating it when it does happen. But it does happen.

 

Since Celtic are in the dock right now, what about ringing Peter Lawwell and saying “Peter, elements of the Green Brigade are excellent and other elements are causing mayhem with IRA chanting, I would advise you to break them up and disperse them around the ground?”...

 

IB: I think Peter is reasonably clear on the issues surrounding the GB.

 

ND: The suggestion that any league tells its clubs how to manage its own supporters is way wide of the mark. I don’t know of any league in the world that believes that it has a role to do that. Our role is to apply the rules that the clubs agree. The rules can always improve, but we are here to apply them.

 

These rules are terribly open-ended. The loopholes are enormous.

 

IB: This is where the point made about communication earlier on is a fair one, because where the clubs can identify the perpetrators they do take action. That hasn’t been communicated as widely as it should be. Supporters are ejected and banned and perhaps that needs to be communicated better.

 

Is this embarrassing for the SPL?

 

ND: I’m not in the business of creating headlines. You’ll have to make your own judgment on the fairness of the situation. You’ll have to say it as you see it.

 

OK, fine. But is it embarrassing?

 

ND: That’s for other people to judge. We’re here to apply the rules of the competition without fear or favour.

 

Ian, is this embarrassing for the SPL?

 

IB: Any misbehaviour round and about football is something I would prefer not to see. I don’t think it adds to the experience. We need to continue to promote a positive match day experience, which doesn’t get reported.

 

Moving on, your picture is on the back page of the tabloids today.

 

ND: Flattering, as ever.

 

Clydesdale Bank are pulling out. Might the negativity of the stuff we’ve been talking about make your life harder in trying to find a new sponsor?

 

ND: You need to look at the global economic climate. People are suffering. There is a lack of money in the system. But the coverage the SPL gets is wall to wall. We broadcast into over 50 countries worldwide. The reality that any brand associated with the SPL gets great brand value.

 

But what about the notoriety of some facets of the league. Is there no such thing as bad publicity?

 

ND: Those are your words.

 

Give me your words then.

 

ND: The SPL is renowned worldwide for passion and drama and excitement. That is how it is known.

 

Passion is a euphemism.

 

ND: Passion is passion and that passion results in tremendously exciting, tense, competitive, combative games.

 

The incident that caused most fascination last season was not players kicking a ball, it was Lennon going for Ally McCoist on the touchline.

 

ND: Sure.

 

So it’s not the football that fascinates, it’s the controversy, the poison...

 

ND: You’re trying to characterise things in black and white again. That’s not the way the world is.

 

OK Neil, it’s been a grim week, so let’s end with a positive. Why will you get a new sponsor for this league?

 

ND: The SPL is about passion, drama and excitement, that is the way it is viewed and enjoyed around the world. There is a global economic slowdown, yes, but we have viewing numbers that are up year on year, we have phenomenal exposure. Attendances last year were only two per cent down which is holding up very well in the teeth of an economic slowdown. We have a good news story.

 

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/football/soft_on_sectarianism_not_us_say_spl_1_1975952

 

Our game really has no hope with these sort of people in charge.

[vanderark14]

Not sure if this was posted on here when it was first published last month. It does show up the likes of Doncaster and the rest for the spineless losers they are and their complete lack of balls when it comes to dealing with the Old Firm...

 

 

 

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/football/soft_on_sectarianism_not_us_say_spl_1_1975952

 

Our game really has no hope with these sort of people in charge.

 

it really is astonishing that our league is dying in front of their eyes and they either couldn't give a fuck or they are to think to realise it. This league is fucked completely.

[NorthernLights24]

it really is astonishing that our league is dying in front of their eyes and they either couldn't give a fuck or they are to think to realise it. This league is fucked completely.

 

It makes me wonder why we have to hear that announcement before every game at Pittodrie. We get told what happens if we sing naughty songs and what punishments can be administrated to clubs as a result. Doncaster and Blair and have basically come out and said that a club will never be punished.

[madjockmcferson]

Ok, ill play devils advocate here. There isnt much teams can do, beyond appealing to fans not to do it. The tims playing irish songs before matches doesnt directly corrolate to being pro IRA...it doesnt encourage people to sing pro IRA songa anymore than if we sang flower of scotland it would make us sing anti english songs.

 

As far as i can see both the tic and the huns have made pretty big statements condemning their own support...if that support chooses not to listen then i doubt there is much a team can do about it.

 

As for prosecuting people for sestarian singing....its isnt that easy to identify people doing it.....the burden of proof is pretty high. Even crimes like rape have a tiny percentage of convictions...

[madjockmcferson]

Absolute nonsense.

 

 

 

Which part of "im playing devils advocate" did your shit for brains not understand?

[madjockmcferson]

Being devils advocate again. * What is wrong with flying the union jack given scotland is in the uk. Granted i have more of a problem with the irish flag given scotland isnt in ireland, but why should the union jack be banned at football matches? And what corolation does it have with sectarianism? Are peope who own union hacks more likely to be sectarian...more so than people who own saltires are more likely to be anti english?

 

*someone taking a position they dont necesarily agree with for the purposes of the discussion at hand. Most of the posts ive seen here dont really get to the nuance of the subject...one of which is whats wrong with flying the flag of the country you live in at a football match and why does that encourage sectarian singing?

[RUL]

Which part of "im playing devils advocate" did your shit for brains not understand?

 

But your not playing devil's advocate in the true sense of the phrase, you're saying there's nothing celtic can do to stop it, which is true at the time to an extent but CCTV is rife in that area, therefore if they wanted to do something afterwards, they would, as they could identify people and block their season tickets etc? I don't think its possible to play devils advocate on this, its not impossible to take action?

[V for Vendetta]

Chants about the IRA are distasteful, didnt know they were being classified as sectarian , strange world

 

Don't think anyone is classifying them as sectarian really. Doesn't mean they are acceptable though.

 

 

it really is astonishing that our league is dying in front of their eyes and they either couldn't give a fuck or they are to think to realise it. This league is fucked completely.

 

Totally agree. We really need to merge the SFL and SPL together. And the new organisation should not be runn by either of these cretins.

 

It makes me wonder why we have to hear that announcement before every game at Pittodrie. We get told what happens if we sing naughty songs and what punishments can be administrated to clubs as a result. Doncaster and Blair and have basically come out and said that a club will never be punished.

 

Yep. They've said this a few times before so its not new. Its pathetic really. I believe the clubs could do more if they so chose.

 

Ok, ill play devils advocate here. There isnt much teams can do, beyond appealing to fans not to do it. The tims playing irish songs before matches doesnt directly corrolate to being pro IRA...it doesnt encourage people to sing pro IRA songa anymore than if we sang flower of scotland it would make us sing anti english songs.

 

As far as i can see both the tic and the huns have made pretty big statements condemning their own support...if that support chooses not to listen then i doubt there is much a team can do about it.

 

As for prosecuting people for sestarian singing....its isnt that easy to identify people doing it.....the burden of proof is pretty high. Even crimes like rape have a tiny percentage of convictions...

 

 

Being devils advocate again. * What is wrong with flying the union jack given scotland is in the uk. Granted i have more of a problem with the irish flag given scotland isnt in ireland, but why should the union jack be banned at football matches? And what corolation does it have with sectarianism? Are peope who own union hacks more likely to be sectarian...more so than people who own saltires are more likely to be anti english?

 

*someone taking a position they dont necesarily agree with for the purposes of the discussion at hand. Most of the posts ive seen here dont really get to the nuance of the subject...one of which is whats wrong with flying the flag of the country you live in at a football match and why does that encourage sectarian singing?

 

I'd argue that the clubs could actually spend a bit of time emphasising their scottishness rather than their irishness or britishness as they currently do. There is no need really for them to constantly cling to these fairly fantasist notions that they are irish or british institutions.

 

So to take flags for example - I'm not saying they should ban irish flags or union jacks but the clubs themselves could see that scottish flags, or club flags are for sale in their stores not irish or union jacks which basically have nothing to do with Rangers or Celtic. Why should these countries need to be associated with the disgusting element of the fans following these clubs?

 

I mean the clubs could actual make public statements if they wanted saying that while they acknowledge their irish and protestant roots on the distant past that they believe they are Scottish clubs at heart etc etc

 

Its quiet easy if they wanted to start subtly dropping the silly stuff and over time it may see the morons attaching themselves to the clubs lose interest in all this "sectarian" tribal nonsense.

[madjockmcferson]

There is no devil's advocate on this one, there's no counter argument on this one at all.

 

Really? You are that unimaginative?

[madjockmcferson]

But your not playing devil's advocate in the true sense of the phrase, you're saying there's nothing celtic can do to stop it, which is true at the time to an extent but CCTV is rife in that area, therefore if they wanted to do something afterwards, they would, as they could identify people and block their season tickets etc? I don't think its possible to play devils advocate on this, its not impossible to take action?

 

Im saying that celtic and rangers have both made it clear to supporters rhey want it to stop. True, they have only done this because they are being threatened with pounts deductions and the likes from european football governing bodies. But, they are making efforts.

 

The OFfans themselves need to take responsibility. Responsibility cannot be given to someone or handed down to someone by the clubs...the individuals need to take responsibility themselves....otherwise rangers or celtics or anyone elses efforts are a waste of time.

 

It is extremely difficult to prosecute these crimes, the fact there has been very little (no?) prosecutions implies this. As for CCTV, im sure the cameras could identify individuals but how do you prove they were singing the words? A half decent lawyer could get his client off any charge.

 

Id love to hammer rangers and celtic over this but i think both clubs have taken much more hardline sttances over the past couple of years.

 

Te OF have stood up ...time their fans did the same.