Scotland's Continuing International Footballing Wilderness

[Jocky Balboa]

After reading the comments on here after the (not at all unpredictable) Georgia debacle last Friday, I think our international footballing standing in the world merits another topic of its own.

 

Firstly, I am baffled at the many "Strachan out" sentiments expressed on this board, for while he may be a cheeky bugger at the best of times, the personal nature of some members' attacks is ridiculous, considering what he did for us as a player. That aside however, his detractors miss the most obvious point, which is that there is NO-ONE out there who could do a better job as Scotland manager. Or at least, no-one who would take the job.

 

Secondly, why the mock outrage and faux surprise? The Georgia result, followed by our usual gutsy, plucky loser performance against the world champions were both par for the tartan course. We surely remember Avril Levein's 4-6-0 in Prague and the 3-2 showing against then-world champions Spain for more recent examples, but Georgia last week was lightning striking twice, after we took SIX POINTS from France and beat Ukraine 3-1 at Hampden, before capitulating in Tbilisi. All recent events show is that we have learned nothing from our past failures, glorious and ridiculous alike.

 

Thirdly, we simply don't have the players anymore. Roxburgh had Liverpool title winners like Steve Nicol and Gary Gillespie and powerhouses like Gough, Miller & McLeish. Brown had a midfield consisting of Collins, Lambert & McAllister, not to mention decent players like Hendry & Gallacher who played in a very good Blackburn team (and who in turn stepped up to international level). Conversely, today we have journeymen struggling to get a game at Championship sides and overrated minkers like Scott Brown, a Ned who got lucky and who has been found out many a time in big games for both club and country. In short, I think even the great Fergie would struggle to get much out of this ragtag bunch.

 

Additionally - and this gets to the heart of the argument, for it has been omnipresent throughout our history, regardless of how strong our player pool was/is - we are the architects of our own downfall. We have forever viewed ourselves as the perennial underdogs, trying to punch above our weight. We have always been the plucky losers hoping for a result, rather than striding forward confidently to achieve all that we can be. As a result, we put up a fight (and come up just short) against footballing giants, while we keech our collective khakis whenever we go into a game as favourites. Hence we have occasionally scraped battling 1-0 home wins against France and the Netherlands, while bottling against Costa Rica, Georgia x2 and have almost been embarassed by Leichtenstein... not to mention conceding to Gibraltar!

 

Looking at the bigger picture, I don't think there is a manager out there anywhere who could do much better. Perhaps Guus Hiddink, but would he honestly want the job?! I also don't think out fortunes will change any time soon, as long as our player pool remains as mediocre as it is. Most pertinently however, we are a sports psychologist's wet dream as far as our mentality is concerned and the question is, will that ever change?!

 

[robbojunior]

I disagree with a lot of this.

 

Giving caps repeatedly to players who can't hold down a regular place for their club side, overlooking talented young players and choosing an out of form, non-goalscoring striker to play one up front, instead of a player banging them in week after week is the problem.

You may be right, there may not be any other manager out there who could do better because in Scotland's history, the same mistakes are made year on year, so maybe there's some hoodoo about being Scotland manager, but its got fuck all to do with the players available. There is a Scotland team and squad that COULD be picked, which would do better than the current choices.

 

Scotland should be getting a manager in who has a mandate to gradually introduce younger players to the squad, sacrificing results for a few years, to build a team that will have played together over a number of years.

[The Hulk]

RE Gordon Strachan; there is always somebody out there who can do a better job. Strachan has done nothing of note as a football manager, he is a media darling and as a result of this he gets away with more than others have done in the past. What he brings to the party is the knowledge and experience of what it means to play at the top level and the passion of playing for your country. But in the modern age this isn't enough. In the next 10-20 years I reckon we will see the passing of this style of management especially at the top level and we will see more and more of the stat-based intellectual manager, it is inevitable. Whisper it quietly but we were ahead of our time when Andy Roxburgh was manager and his methodical, high-skills-based technical approach. The established and trophy-laden pros at his time came from the old breed and didn't take as well to it as pros of this era would.

There is a cultural blockage in Scotland where successive football coaches brought up during the old regimes struggle to shake off the attitude and habits of old. Football is a game you play with your brain as all time great Johan Cruijff said; lo and behold total football took over. Berti Vogts tried and failed to instill new methods and thinking. We shouldn't let that affect us going for another overseas coach. Can it be any coincidence that Rainer Bonhof was a pretty successful coach of the junior sides when trying to instill new thinking into younger and more impressionable players? Strachan and McGhee are dinosaurs. We need a coach who is unpopular with the media so he can ultimately prove everyone wrong and change the culture.

 

I suggested in the wake of the game on Monday that I think we're about to go through another Berti Vogts phase, a phase where we need to start breeding in younger players. Why do we take 35 year old Gordon Greer to sit on the bench when at his stage of career there is little prospect of him actually improving as a player in the longer term as his career winds down? We need to introduce the next big things much earlier. Rather than hype them up to the nines and then claim disappointment at them "not fulfilling their potential" players such as Ryan Gauld, Ryan Christie, Calum Paterson, Jamie Walker etc etc should be blooded in competitive games, throw them in at the deep end, play with more guile and pace.

[Byrne Baby Byrne]

The problem is the SFA were formed decades and decades before most other Federations but are still ran the same way as when they formed in the 19th century

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Interesting points Jocky.

 

Firstly, I am baffled at the many "Strachan out" sentiments expressed on this board

I agree its unfair to call for his head - think folk must be at the wind up?

 

Secondly, why the mock outrage and faux surprise?

Maybe younger posters who dont have the experience of decades of failure to review?

 

Anyone who has seen a handful of scotland qualifying campaigns should know what to expect.

 

All recent events show is that we have learned nothing from our past failures, glorious and ridiculous alike.

Agreed.

 

Thirdly, we simply don't have the players anymore.

Agreed, and why is that?

 

- we prize effort over skill (when both are actually important)

- youth never given a chance

- always frightened to try something new

- woeful development of / facilities for kids

- our general attitude to life, as well as health and fitness

 

Players would rather get paid a fortune to sit on the bench somewhere, than play regularly at a team where pay is more modest.

 

regardless of how strong our player pool was/is - we are the architects of our own downfall. We have forever viewed ourselves as the perennial underdogs, trying to punch above our weight. We have always been the plucky losers hoping for a result, rather than striding forward confidently to achieve all that we can be.

Yep, we often beat ourselves before a ball is kicked.

 

Perhaps Guus Hiddink, but would he honestly want the job?!

No. He wouldnt.

 

I also don't think out fortunes will change any time soon, as long as our player pool remains as mediocre as it is. Most pertinently however, we are a sports psychologist's wet dream as far as our mentality is concerned and the question is, will that ever change?!

No. Being "plucky losers" is part of the Scottish Psyche, how the nation understands itself. The Scottish mentality is a strange one, I actually think people enjoy narrowly losing more than they do winning. Winning just gets you 3 points, but losing narrowly means the nation can wallow in self-regarding thoughts of itself.

 

For me, I have come to consider Scotland to be a 3rd rate football nation. That puts everything into perspective and means our results make more sense.

 

I dont take the international game too seriously. Its rarely, if ever, a "must see".

 

There has definitely been a significant decline in my own lifetime - although I think part of that is other nations improving as we have stagnated.

[Byrne Baby Byrne]

I also heard that Alan Hutton is the first player to retire from club football to concentrate on international football

 

hohoho

[Foster14]

Scotland 1-0 Estonia

Scotland 1-2 Wales

Serbia 2-0 Scotland

Croatia 0-1 Scotland

England 3-2 Scotland

Scotland 0-2 Belgium

Macedonia 1-2 Scotland

Scotland 2-0 Croatia

Scotland 0-0 USA

Norway 0-1 Scotland

 

Poland 0-1 Scotland

Nigeria 2-2 Scotland

Germany 2-1 Scotland

Scotland 1-0 Georgia

Poland 2-2 Scotland

Scotland 1-0 Ireland

Scotland 1-3 England

 

Scotland 1-0 Northern Ireland

Scotland 6-1 Gibraltar

Scotland 1-0 Qatar

Ireland 1-1 Scotland

Georgia 1-0 Scotland

Scotland 2-3 Germany

 

3 wins where we have scored 2 goals. Only 2 where we have won by more than one goal. I think Strachan earned some extra time from the finish we had to the last campaign, but we haven't appeared as organised as last time and he seems determined to pick players for reasons other than form. I've only seen bits of games over the last year or so, but it has been such turgid stuff, I don't know how the SFA can justify the prices they charge.

 

An average of 1.3 goals a game, (30 in 20, 6 of which were against Gibraltar and 4 of which have been own goals) is not good enough to make major tournaments. Strachan's unwillingness to alter anything (personnel or tactics) to better that tally, is worrying.

[robbojunior]

RE Gordon Strachan; there is always somebody out there who can do a better job. Strachan has done nothing of note as a football manager, he is a media darling and as a result of this he gets away with more than others have done in the past. What he brings to the party is the knowledge and experience of what it means to play at the top level and the passion of playing for your country. But in the modern age this isn't enough. In the next 10-20 years I reckon we will see the passing of this style of management especially at the top level and we will see more and more of the stat-based intellectual manager, it is inevitable. Whisper it quietly but we were ahead of our time when Andy Roxburgh was manager and his methodical, high-skills-based technical approach. The established and trophy-laden pros at his time came from the old breed and didn't take as well to it as pros of this era would.

There is a cultural blockage in Scotland where successive football coaches brought up during the old regimes struggle to shake off the attitude and habits of old. Football is a game you play with your brain as all time great Johan Cruijff said; lo and behold total football took over. Berti Vogts tried and failed to instill new methods and thinking. We shouldn't let that affect us going for another overseas coach. Can it be any coincidence that Rainer Bonhof was a pretty successful coach of the junior sides when trying to instill new thinking into younger and more impressionable players? Strachan and McGhee are dinosaurs. We need a coach who is unpopular with the media so he can ultimately prove everyone wrong and change the culture.

 

I suggested in the wake of the game on Monday that I think we're about to go through another Berti Vogts phase, a phase where we need to start breeding in younger players. Why do we take 35 year old Gordon Greer to sit on the bench when at his stage of career there is little prospect of him actually improving as a player in the longer term as his career winds down? We need to introduce the next big things much earlier. Rather than hype them up to the nines and then claim disappointment at them "not fulfilling their potential" players such as Ryan Gauld, Ryan Christie, Calum Paterson, Jamie Walker etc etc should be blooded in competitive games, throw them in at the deep end, play with more guile and pace.

 

Agreed.

 

We have the ridiculous situation where Ricky Sbragia doesn't select a lad playing for Real Madrid because he's too wee.

 

That is your starting point right there. Get any cunt with that mentality fucking well away from our game.

[ollie1903]

I stopped reading at this

 

NO-ONE out there who could do a better job as Scotland manager

Because it is, quite clearly, bullshit.

 

No offence

[Hewitt a the pies]

We've had great squads in the past who've shot themselves in the foot by losing to or drawing with teams the likes of Peru, Iran, Costa Rica, Australia, Luxembourg,Morocco, Faroes etc etc etc and that's not even thinking about all the other fannylike performances that almost ended in disaster.

Looking at how well countries like Northern Ireland, Wales and Iceland are doing makes you wonder where we've gone wrong.

Only bonus is it's not as if the English have won anymore trophies than us since 1967!!

[BWG]

Need a progressive 10 year plan if we're to see any improvement and the SFA don't plan ahead more than 10 days. We're fucked until systemic changes are made and they never will be. Just support the dons and be happy.

[fine-n-dandy]

After reading the comments on here after the (not at all unpredictable) Georgia debacle last Friday, I think our international footballing standing in the world merits another topic of its own.

 

I don't

[The Oxford Don]

I agree with C_S: the problem isn't so much that we have got worse, it's just that we have remained static whilst other nations of similar standing have improved significantly. Unfortunately, our backs-to-the-wall underdog mentality means that we remain capable of eking out truly unlikely occasional results against supposedly much stronger countries, which are then celebrated like Bannockburn MkII and mask the underlying malaise.

 

15 years ago (and even then we were much better than we are now) the complaints about the national team would have read something like: inconsistent, unable to close games out, frequently embarrassed by lesser opponents but frustratingly capable of raising their game against superior teams, no natural finishers in the squad, overlooking of players who are playing well for their clubs, over-reliance on the old guard, promising youngsters not given enough of a chance...

 

And now? Well, take yer pick...

 

Welcome to Scotland, where nothing ever changes.

[Pudgie]

I just can't see why we constantly undermine our home leagues with out team selections. We're not making any international tournaments any time soon if we can't qualify for this huge tournament, where we were basically handed a spot.

 

We're shite, and the national team should be used to further the careers of those in our home leagues.

[fine-n-dandy]

I just can't see why we constantly undermine our home leagues with out team selections. We're not making any international tournaments any time soon if we can't qualify for this huge tournament, where we were basically handed a spot.

 

We're shite, and the national team should be used to further the careers of those in our home leagues.

Like ooh Netherlands for example.

[oilcat]

Firstly, Strachan gets away with a hell of a lot cos the media get soundbites from him, his backroom team of McGhee and McCall have done the square root of **** all as managers/coaches and bring nothing to the table.

 

Strachans thran persistance of playing players that simply arent good enough is now hurting the team, Hutton, Mulgrew, Fletcher, the wee hunchback from celtic, are not even first picks with their club, yet when goals and wins are needed he leaves Griffiths who is actually a goalscorer on the bench

 

Add to this the SFA's penny pinching attitude when travelling which has been well documented makes you wonder if they actually WANT to qualify for major tournaments

[The Oxford Don]

Like ooh Netherlands for example.

 

Yes but their problems aren't systemic... they are one proper manager away from having a team capable of competing at the top again, and still have some of the world's best players in their ranks.

 

The Dutch to an extent have always been eleven egos flying in loose formation, and the first thing any manager has to do within that set-up is get them all pulling in the same direction. Otherwise it doesn't really matter how good the players are, the whole simply ceases to function. That's where they're at now, but as and when a proper manager comes back in they'll be back to their old, brilliant selves. I hope so, anyway, as I have always been a huge admirer of Dutch football.

[ollie1903]

Firstly, Strachan gets away with a hell of a lot cos the media get soundbites from him, his backroom team of McGhee and McCall have done the square root of **** all as managers/coaches and bring nothing to the table.

 

Strachans thran persistance of playing players that simply arent good enough is now hurting the team, Hutton, Mulgrew, Fletcher, the wee hunchback from celtic, are not even first picks with their club, yet when goals and wins are needed he leaves Griffiths who is actually a goalscorer on the bench

 

Add to this the SFA's penny pinching attitude when travelling which has been well documented makes you wonder if they actually WANT to qualify for major tournaments

Harsh. He gave Tim Cahill his break in this country you know.

 

Y'know

[tup]

Strachan out. He is fucking useless, and much, much worse than Levein.

 

Should have been sacked as soon as he attempted to appoint McGhee.

 

He has the media and therefore the idiotic tartan army in his pocket.

 

A new contract defies logic. Let's reward abject failure, brilliant plan.

 

Sack the little fuckwit now IMO, the damage is done.

[fine-n-dandy]

Strachan out. He is fucking useless, and much, much worse than Levein.

 

Should have been sacked as soon as he attempted to appoint McGhee.

 

He has the media and therefore the idiotic tartan army in his pocket.

 

A new contract defies logic. Let's reward abject failure, brilliant plan.

 

Sack the little fuckwit now IMO, the damage is done.

 

 

MASSIVE exaggeration

 

Just jealous that he's so tall

[Pudgie]

Fuck me, even just plunder the Under 21's

 

McGhee, Paterson, King - Hearts

Ryan Christie - Caley

Souttar, Telfer - Utd

 

Then you've got

Nick Ross, Scott Bain, Paul McGinn, Greg Stewart- Dundee

McLean, Jack, Quinn, Reynolds, Pawlett, Shinnie - Aberdeen

Ali Crawford - Hamilton

Nicholson - Hearts

Leitch - Motherwell

Bannigan - Partick

Marcus Fraser, Gardyne- County

Spittal - Utd

 

 

Now I'm nae saying that these players are the be all and end all of Scottish football players, but they deserve call ups, especially in games against Quatar, Nigeria, Gibraltar, Norn Iron fuck me even England!

[fine-n-dandy]

Fuck me, even just plunder the Under 21's

 

McGhee, Paterson, King - Hearts

Ryan Christie - Caley

Souttar, Telfer - Utd

 

Then you've got

Nick Ross, Scott Bain, Paul McGinn, Greg Stewart- Dundee

McLean, Jack, Quinn, Reynolds, Pawlett, Shinnie - Aberdeen

Ali Crawford - Hamilton

Nicholson - Hearts

Leitch - Motherwell

Bannigan - Partick

Marcus Fraser, Gardyne- County

Spittal - Utd

 

 

Now I'm nae saying that these players are the be all and end all of Scottish football players, but they deserve call ups, especially in games against Quatar, Nigeria, Gibraltar, Norn Iron fuck me even England!

 

 

He will likely get a game before any of the others now.

 

Also you forgot Taylor for us

[Pudgie]

 

 

He will likely get a game before any of the others now.

Oh, good point. Forgot he'd shifted allegiances to... them.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Manager wise I'm prepared to give Strachan more time. He is technically able, experienced, media savvy and, until the Georgia game at least, able to produce a decent seafood platter from what is otherwise a pun of old haddock. So no I wouldn't sack him although his quality of backroom staff I agree has more than a hint of old pals act about it and we shouldn't be scared to force some 'falling on swords' to be done. Principle fault for me is a lack of ruthlessness, preferring instead to rely on a core team when it is patently obvious they aren't up to it or (see later) up for it.

 

I see a parallel with Fergies Scottish stint whereby he never felt in full control (which of course was Ferguson's model of choice) of the Liverpool players who at the time were considered the best in Europe (one season aside, obviously ). Can't help but feel the current English based players have a similar level of apathy or, at best, remoteness. I'm not accusing them of not trying per se. I am accusing them of deciding that they were going to try against Germany but left others to shoulder the responsibility against Georgia. We 're not good enough for that. The trouble now is that we're not dealing with Hansen, Dalgliesh et al, but Morrison, Hutton etc. There is a possibility that a fresh youthful exuberance that, say, a Jack would bring in might be enough to overcome the obvious technical deficiencies that would still remain.

 

Agree with the poster above. Others are more deserving of a crystalnacht! Our existing SFA fraternity have now overseen virtual implosion at club level and at very, very best, most optimistic of summaries have seen us stand still whilst other similarly resourced nations have progressed miles beyond us. We've had the McLeish (Henry version) debacle, the Wotte revolution or lack of but not one sacking. Not one Thanks but GTF.

 

That's my thoughts.

[tup]

MASSIVE exaggeration

 

Just jealous that he's so tall

Do you ever have anything non-glaikit to say?

[fine-n-dandy]

Do you ever have anything non-glaikit to say?

Of course not you fkn clownn

Have you even been following my post history?

[The Oxford Don]

Manager wise I'm prepared to give Strachan more time. He is technically able, experienced, media savvy and, until the Georgia game at least, able to produce a decent seafood platter from what is otherwise a pun of old haddock. So no I wouldn't sack him although his quality of backroom staff I agree has more than a hint of old pals act about it and we shouldn't be scared to force some 'falling on swords' to be done. Principle fault for me is a lack of ruthlessness, preferring instead to rely on a core team when it is patently obvious they aren't up to it or (see later) up for it.

 

I see a parallel with Fergies Scottish stint whereby he never felt in full control (which of course was Ferguson's model of choice) of the Liverpool players who at the time were considered the best in Europe (one season aside, obviously ). Can't help but feel the current English based players have a similar level of apathy or, at best, remoteness. I'm not accusing them of not trying per se. I am accusing them of deciding that they were going to try against Germany but left others to shoulder the responsibility against Georgia. We 're not good enough for that. The trouble now is that we're not dealing with Hansen, Dalgliesh et al, but Morrison, Hutton etc. There is a possibility that a fresh youthful exuberance that, say, a Jack would bring in might be enough to overcome the obvious technical deficiencies that would still remain.

 

Agree with the poster above. Others are more deserving of a crystalnacht! Our existing SFA fraternity have now overseen virtual implosion at club level and at very, very best, most optimistic of summaries have seen us stand still whilst other similarly resourced nations have progressed miles beyond us. We've had the McLeish (Henry version) debacle, the Wotte revolution or lack of but not one sacking. Not one Thanks but GTF.

 

That's my thoughts.

 

Not just Fergie either, Stein had the same problem with the Liverpool players. He asked them for the lowdown on Ian Rush ahead of the WC qualifier against Wales at Hampden in 1985, and the Liverpool boys went all 'scouts honour' on him and refused to tell him anything about their clubmate. Situation not helped by Wales winning the game 1-0, with Ian Rush scoring the only goal.

 

So whenever it gets pointed out that Alan Hansen only got capped about 25 times for Scotland and, oh, isn't that ridiculous because he was the best defender in Europe at the time... well, just remind them of this story.

[Proud9]

Jack Harper? Brighton reserves

[Ke1t]

The problem with Scottish football begins at the executive level, run as it is by absolute shambles' of individuals who give not one short, fat fuck for the health of the game in Scotland.

 

It's compounded by the ignorance and arrogance (in equal measure) of the people involved in the game, and the cowardice of the clubs themselves.

 

The Scottish game is third rate, as is its players, and those who want it to change have no voice.

 

Next stop is fourth rate.

[fine-n-dandy]

Why do we not produce stars like we did in the past?

 

I blame a lack of jumpers, if we had more jumpers in Scotland we would have enough for more games of football for kids.

Kids don't want to risk using their Nintendos for goal posts in case they get broken.