America V Russia

[RUL]

Who's going to win this battle of evil? Rocky or Drago?

 

Today's latest is after days of telling us how the Russian bombing is out of control, unorganised and so forth, that the US has blown up a hospital ?

 

 

The medical charity MSF says at least three of its staff were killed in the Afghan city of Kunduz after a clinic was hit by an air strike on Saturday.

US forces were carrying out air strikes at the time. The Nato alliance has admitted the clinic may have been hit.

MSF says more than 30 staff are unaccounted for. The hospital had 105 patients at the time.

 

[E-P-K]

Who's going to win this battle of evil? Rocky or Drago?

 

Today's latest is after days of telling us how the Russian bombing is out of control, unorganised and so forth, that the US has blown up a hospital ?

 

 

 

 

Geopolitics on a grand scale.

 

Russia has somewhat blindsided the yanks with their strikes in Syria.

 

And to be fair, if they attack other targets like Al-Nursa front, Islamic front or other groups under the "army of conquest" then so be it, they are hardly the paragon of virtue in warfare.

 

Russia obviously has military assets in Syria, on the Med sea that they want to keep, and if Assad falls, they could well lose that strategic assets. But for sure, an already very complex conflict, just got much more complex.

[Geoff_Tipps]

I hope they both get fucked up.

 

Pair of cunts.

[dave_min]

Fingers crossed the Saudi's get in on this somehow.

[RUL]

Fingers crossed the Saudi's get in on this somehow.

 

What I don't understand is why they are all so desperate to bomb the fuck out of Syria? They must be destroying that country. Is it oil?

[The Boofon]

 

What I don't understand is why they are all so desperate to bomb the fuck out of Syria? They must be destroying that country. Is it oil?

No it's barley and corn.

 

Of course it's fucking oil.

[Redstar]

[Redstar]

I think this centres around securing a stable routing for some super pipeline to serve Europe from the oil rich Caspian Sea...part of the Masterplan I reckon...

[Tommy]

No it's barley and corn.

Of course it's fucking oil.

Harsh.

He was only asking a question.

 

Does that mean there will be a shortage of breakfast cereals?

[Poodler]

I hope they both get fucked up.

 

Pair of cunts.

Tommy and EB4B?

[Tommy]

Tommy and EB4B?

I wasn't invited.

 

It's Tommo :-)

[Dom Sullivan]

I wasn't invited.

It's Tommo :-)

Just as well for EB4B.

 

What a hiding he'd get

[Tommy]

Just as well for EB4B.

What a hiding he'd get

He's a lucky man.

[ChutneyLove]

Think how much global nuclear annihilation would save me in mortgage payments. Glass half full and all that.

[Robbie Winters]

Think how much global nuclear annihilation would save me in mortgage payments. Glass half full and all that.

I think I pay insurance to protect against that, I bet the premiums go up this year though

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

What I don't understand is why they are all so desperate to bomb the fuck out of Syria? They must be destroying that country. Is it oil?

 

Syria has been a long time ally and client state of Russia (and before that the Soviet Union). Russia has a naval base in Syria. Russia wants to prop the Syrian Regime up so (i) they continue to have friends in the region, (ii) they still have a client for their military exports, and (iii) they can keep using their naval base in the region.

 

Syria under the Assad Regime has long been an opponent of America, hence the yanks want rid of the Regime - just like they got rid of Hussein, Gaddafi etc. They dont really give a shit about the local consequences of regime change, which is inevitably a descent into a lawless hell hole. However they cant be seen to be on the same side as ISIS, which is why they do token bombing on ISIS, while aiding other Syrian rebels in the hope the regime will be toppled.

 

Russia will be far more proactive and effective with bombing, so I have the sense that we might finally be "going somewhere" with all this.

 

The Americans bleat that Russia is targetting the "moderate rebels" which America supports. In fact, there are no moderate rebels at all. For example, Al Queda (in its al-Nusra front guise) is part of the Free Syrian Army. The Americans trained and supplied a sizeable unit of "moderate rebels" - called ' Division 30' - the vast majority of whom immediately defected to islamic groups, along with their US weaponry, upon entering Syria. The amount who didnt defect could be counted on one hand.

 

Americas policy is typically confused, ineffectual and counter-productive, as is most things the US Government do. Vladimir Putin, on the other hand, knows exactly what he wasnt to achieve in Syria and I would not bet against him.

 

Guy from Janes defence on the wireless last week, says Russia already has 30 Jets, 24 gunships, "loads of artillery" and "other stuff" in the country, all protected by Naval Infantry.

 

Pollyannas are saying Russia is only there to protect its own interests, but the survival of the Assad regime is a Russian interest and so we can be sure Russia is a player in this.

 

Yer man Ramzan Kadyrov (38 yr old Leader of Chechnya, former Islamic rebel who fought russia, and now a pawn of Putin) weighed in last week as well - denouncing ISIS, saying they cannot be called proper muslims and saying he hoped Putin would send some of his own muslim troops (chechen units) to sort them right out.

 

I think the Assad Regime will survive, Putins popularity in Russia will sky-rocket and the west will be left looking like limp-wristed pansies.

[E-P-K]

 

Syria has been a long time ally and client state of Russia (and before that the Soviet Union). Russia has a naval base in Syria. Russia wants to prop the Syrian Regime up so (i) they continue to have friends in the region, (ii) they still have a client for their military exports, and (iii) they can keep using their naval base in the region.

 

Syria under the Assad Regime has long been an opponent of America, hence the yanks want rid of the Regime - just like they got rid of Hussein, Gaddafi etc. They dont really give a shit about the local consequences of regime change, which is inevitably a descent into a lawless hell hole. However they cant be seen to be on the same side as ISIS, which is why they do token bombing on ISIS, while aiding other Syrian rebels in the hope the regime will be toppled.

 

Russia will be far more proactive and effective with bombing, so I have the sense that we might finally be "going somewhere" with all this.

 

The Americans bleat that Russia is targetting the "moderate rebels" which America supports. In fact, there are no moderate rebels at all. For example, Al Queda (in its al-Nusra front guise) is part of the Free Syrian Army. The Americans trained and supplied a sizeable unit of "moderate rebels" - called ' Division 30' - the vast majority of whom immediately defected to islamic groups, along with their US weaponry, upon entering Syria. The amount who didnt defect could be counted on one hand.

 

Americas policy is typically confused, ineffectual and counter-productive, as is most things the US Government do. Vladimir Putin, on the other hand, knows exactly what he wasnt to achieve in Syria and I would not bet against him.

 

Guy from Janes defence on the wireless last week, says Russia already has 30 Jets, 24 gunships, "loads of artillery" and "other stuff" in the country, all protected by Naval Infantry.

 

Pollyannas are saying Russia is only there to protect its own interests, but the survival of the Assad regime is a Russian interest and so we can be sure Russia is a player in this.

 

Yer man Ramzan Kadyrov (38 yr old Leader of Chechnya, former Islamic rebel who fought russia, and now a pawn of Putin) weighed in last week as well - denouncing ISIS, saying they cannot be called proper muslims and saying he hoped Putin would send some of his own muslim troops (chechen units) to sort them right out.

 

I think the Assad Regime will survive, Putins popularity in Russia will sky-rocket and the west will be left looking like limp-wristed pansies.

 

 

Excellent post, and sums a lot of it up, but of course it is far more intertwined and complex.

 

A proxy war being fought on multiple fronts, and very difficult to see a solution even when Assad does fall.

 

The Turkey V PKK v IS is just one of these complex battles within a war that is spreading beyond borders. Hezbollah has increased their numbers, and the quality of their fighters to Syria, Iranian Quds force now have large numbers on the ground in Syria.

As well as literally dozens of different militia, mujaheddin, Islamist groups, all with their own agenda and allegiance.

 

Saudi spend $10B+ more on its military spending per annum that Russia, and it will be interesting to see if they up the ante. However I would suspect there army is shit, bling rather than substance.

[tommo1903]

Royal Rumble is the only way to end this.

[Bluto10]

If we can change, and they can change, everybody can change.

[E-P-K]

If we can change, and they can change, everybody can change.

 

 

With circa 250K dead it will take a load of change to resolve deep rooted issues.

[Ke1t]

NATO has told the Russians stop bombing in Syria.

 

Surely that'll stop the Russkies in their tracks.

[Tommy]

NATO has told the Russians stop bombing in Syria.

 

Surely that'll stop the Russkies in their tracks.

 

Indeed.

 

The Fear Factor.

[RUL]

NATO has told the Russians stop bombing in Syria.

 

Surely that'll stop the Russkies in their tracks.

 

Seems to have come from Turkey having to escort a Russian jet out of itis' air space.

[E-P-K]

 

Seems to have come from Turkey having to escort a Russian jet out of itis' air space.

 

 

Classic media propaganda.

[Ke1t]

I don't hold with the notion that Putin's some geostrategic savant who's running rings around the West. I think he's put himself in a position where he has to keep upping the ante in order to look like the strong leader Russians want, and his allusions towards recreating the Soviet Empire is a BIG wankfest for a nation that has seen it's perceived glories fade as other powers have risen.

 

Why anyone would want to go back to the days of empty shelves, long lines to grab the last sausage roll, the KGB, Gulags, blanket bans on Western shit, no cars, accordion music, and a militarised society... just so they can claim 'We are big Shuperpower!" is a headscratcher.

 

[The Boofon]

I don't hold with the notion that Putin's some geostrategic savant who's running rings around the West. I think he's put himself in a position where he has to keep upping the ante in order to look like the strong leader Russians want, and his allusions towards recreating the Soviet Empire is a BIG wankfest for a nation that has seen it's perceived glories fade as other powers have risen.

 

Why anyone would want to go back to the days of empty shelves, long lines to grab the last sausage roll, the KGB, Gulags, blanket bans on Western shit, no cars, accordion music, and a militarised society... just so they can claim 'We are big Shuperpower!" is a headscratcher.

 

More headscratching from me as to why you've said Superpower in a Dutch accent when talking about the Russians.

[Ke1t]

More headscratching from me as to why you've said Superpower in a Dutch accent when talking about the Russians.

 

Standard generic foreign accent. Dutch, Russian, Scottish.. same thing.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

 

Excellent post, and sums a lot of it up, but of course it is far more intertwined and complex.

 

A proxy war being fought on multiple fronts, and very difficult to see a solution even when Assad does fall.

 

The Turkey V PKK v IS is just one of these complex battles within a war that is spreading beyond borders. Hezbollah has increased their numbers, and the quality of their fighters to Syria, Iranian Quds force now have large numbers on the ground in Syria.

As well as literally dozens of different militia, mujaheddin, Islamist groups, all with their own agenda and allegiance.

 

Saudi spend $10B+ more on its military spending per annum that Russia, and it will be interesting to see if they up the ante. However I would suspect there army is shit, bling rather than substance.

 

Yes the multi-layered nature of the war is quite perplexing.

 

I think at its baic level it is a sectarian power-struggle in the region, fought by proxy. You have:

 

The secular Assad Regime, who are Baathists politically, controlling the syrian army and supported by Syrian Christian and other minority militias. As Assad and his family are Alawites (a type or derivative of shia muslim), he is suported by Iran (Shia) and Hezbollah (Shia). He is also increasingly supported in the field by long-time ally Russia and most likely materially by China and North Korea, who he has often purchased military equipment from.

 

The Islamist rebel groups on the other hand are sunni muslims, supported by Saudi, Qatar etc - the more hardline Sunni Islamic states. This is where it gets complicated, as America is ostensibly an ally and patron of these Sunni States and shares their desire to see the back of Assad, yet at the same time is an enemy of their pet Islamic groups who themselves are a direct threat to the US / West.

 

And so Americas contribution is counter-productive in so far as bombing the Sunni militants helps Assad, but helping what they call "moderate" militants (ie militants who are slightly less open about their hardline views) helps the anti-Assad forces. You wonder why they bother at all? What is the point? They have already been made to look like fools by the Division 30 fiasco.

 

The pro-Assad side is at least coherent and seems to be pulling in the one direction, which is why I think they will ultimately prevail.

 

What is the succesfull outcome for the US? Is Assad remains they have failed, as their opponent remains - but if Assad goes we end up with another hardline Sunni state which sponsors international terrorism (whether existing as a formal country, or lawless area controlled by warlords). How is that better for America?

 

I dont really think America knows what it wants, and I do not think they are sufficiently ruthless (a la Putin) to get what they want, even if they did know. I think they like bombing places and they are comfortable with that, as it makes them feel relevant, but beyond that I dont see that they have a coherent strategy.

 

I dont know much about the turks and the kurds etc, beyond its another complex situation in that the kurds are our anti-ISIS allies, but their enemy the turks are our NATO allies.

 

Of course there are probably various other levels of complexity to consider which are not even in the public domain.

 

I agree with you that the Saudi army is probably shit. Most Arab armies are shit, as a rule. The Saudis couldnt even get the Iraqis out of Kuwait without help from a massive multinational force. They didnt even try, the shitbags.

 

Note how the Iraqi goverment and army seems largely to have faded out of the question - what are they doing exactly - and its all about syria. The fact they were shown to be a paper-tiger by the rise of ISIS shows what a failure the western intervention and re-structuring of Iraq has been.

[tommo1903]

More headscratching from me as to why you've said Superpower in a Dutch accent when talking about the Russians.

 

I'd also add its more headscratching having a long line of people for one sausage roll.

 

Surely everyone behind the person first in line wouldn't bother?

[Robbie Winters]

I once joined a queue like that in Kiev think it was just for the lavvie, ended up with a sausage roll.

No wonder Russians want Ukraine, mair sausage rolls