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Scottish Independence Referendum 2


Henry

Should Scotland be an independent country?  

275 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      197
    • No
      78


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True but the No campaign also ran their entire campaign on the premise that voting no was the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU. So no, deal with it is not a sensible argument.

 

but what will the question be, if in relation to EU.

 

As in the SNP (who are calling this) cannot guarantee entry to the EU

 

Is it multi question

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Worth of Scottish exports to rest of UK: £48.5 billion

Worth of Scottish exports to EU: £11.6 billion

 

Number of Scottish jobs linked to UK market: 1,000,000

Number of Scottish jobs linked to EU marker: 250,000

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/gordon-brown-tells-scots-uks-single-market-worth-far-more-than-e/

 

Why do the SNP seek to harm our economy by cutting off access to our main market, while pretending that the EU single market is the be all and end all?

 

Didn't you just vote to leave a union which was our biggest trading partner with the argument that we wouldn't be "cutting off access" to our main market?

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I disagree for reasons already stated.

 

Plus polling shows most people opposed to a second vote.

 

I thought polls were all wrong?

 

 

The then leader of the party said at the time it was a once in a generation vote.

 

So it wasn't an SNP pledge, it was Salmond's opinion. Glad we can clear that up.

 

 

But I agree with you their word is worthless, we have already established that on the thread.

 

No you don't agree with me, because I never said that. Now who is being disingenuous?

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That was going to be my next point. Politicians to some extent do what they believe is right and to some extent what they believe will get them voted in (ie what is popular). So either the SNP believe what they are doing is right, or they believe it will be popular. Either way, this means it is actually the correct thing to do. If it's popular then it means a significant number of people in Scotland want it. So a referendum seems like a good way to find out just how many.

 

Let's be honest, everyone knows the nation is split almost down the middle on this issue - it is very close, so to dismiss it off the table is to silence half the country. If the vote was 70% no, 30 % yes, then this would be dead and the SNP would most likely not be in power, but it wasn't, and they are, in fact going from 6 to 56 MPs at Westminster post-indyref.

 

Anyone trying to silence this issue is the one with the fingers in their ears.

 

 

can say the same the other way - that the 55% that voted to stay in the UK in '14 are effectively being ignored/silenced for a minority view

 

it's grim either way

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Didn't you just vote to leave a union which was our biggest trading partner with the argument that we wouldn't be "cutting off access" to our main market?

Stop answering questions with questions.

 

Answer mine for a change.

 

Why do the SNP pretend the EU market is the main thing for scotland, when it clearly isnt?

 

The Uk market is 4 times more important to scotland than is the eu market. So it is clear which links are more important.

 

The SNP plan to leave the Uk and cosy up to their EU masters is clearly to accept 2nd best for Scotland.

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I thought polls were all wrong?

Who said "polls are all wrong"?

 

So it wasn't an SNP pledge, it was Salmond's opinion. Glad we can clear that up.

Not sure people will vote for a party where the leader statements do not in fact reflect policy....

 

No you don't agree with me, because I never said that. Now who is being disingenuous?

You are, fannybaws, because I never said you said it. I was using "we" to mean we (everyone) having the discussion.

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Stop answering questions with questions.

 

Answer mine for a change.

 

Why do the SNP pretend the EU market is the main thing for scotland, when it clearly isnt?

 

The Uk market is 4 times more important to scotland than is the eu market. So it is clear which links are more important.

 

The SNP plan to leave the Uk and cosy up to their EU masters is clearly to accept 2nd best for Scotland.

 

Because I'm pointing out how much of a hypocrite you are, clearly.

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Why do the SNP pretend the EU market is the main thing for scotland, when it clearly isnt?

 

It is quite clearly an excuse to set up the next independence referendum, that is quite obvious to anyone. The SNP ultimately have one over-arching aim. The comments last time about it being once in a generation were purely contrived to ensure people keen on yes, but not sure right now wouldn't wait till a future referendum to actually vote yes.

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Who said "polls are all wrong"?

 

You said polls are untrustworthy following Brexit and Trump.

 

Not sure people will vote for a party where the leader statements do not in fact reflect policy....

 

I guess they will given they won and election and 56 seats out of 59 in the General since then...

 

 

fannybaws

 

How very Christian

 

 

I never said you said it.

 

hmm... really...

 

But I agree with you their word is worthless, we have already established that on the thread.

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That was going to be my next point. Politicians to some extent do what they believe is right and to some extent what they believe will get them voted in (ie what is popular). So either the SNP believe what they are doing is right, or they believe it will be popular. Either way, this means it is actually the correct thing to do. If it's popular then it means a significant number of people in Scotland want it. So a referendum seems like a good way to find out just how many.

 

Let's be honest, everyone knows the nation is split almost down the middle on this issue - it is very close, so to dismiss it off the table is to silence half the country. If the vote was 70% no, 30 % yes, then this would be dead and the SNP would most likely not be in power, but it wasn't, and they are, in fact going from 6 to 56 MPs at Westminster post-indyref.

 

Anyone trying to silence this issue is the one with the fingers in their ears.

All in, good post.

 

Re "silencing half the country" - to be honest, I am quite comfortable with silencing people who disagree with me :laughing:

 

Is it stands, I think yes might do better, but I dont know if they would win.

 

I think the SNP have been foolish to start this off without first addressing the problems with their first pitch in 2014.

 

I think the base case is weaker than it was before, not stronger, especially given the new powers and opportunities we stand to gain from brexit.

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Worth of Scottish exports to rest of UK: £48.5 billion

Worth of Scottish exports to EU: £11.6 billion

 

Number of Scottish jobs linked to UK market: 1,000,000

Number of Scottish jobs linked to EU marker: 250,000

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/29/gordon-brown-tells-scots-uks-single-market-worth-far-more-than-e/

 

Why do the SNP seek to harm our economy by cutting off access to our main market, while pretending that the EU single market is the be all and end all?

So all trade with rUK would stop absolutely? And all trade with EU would stay the same?

 

Fuck, can I change my vote above?

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You said polls are untrustworthy following Brexit and Trump.

So I didn't say they were "all wrong"?

 

I guess they will given they won and election and 56 seats out of 59 in the General since then...

You guess wrong, as they hadn't called a second referendum at that stage.

 

How very Christian

Who made you the Pope? (You would probably be an improvement on francis, right enough, it wouldnt be hard).

 

hmm... really...

Yes really.

 

You didnt say "their word is worthless" but you intimated as much by saying they were disingenuous.

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So all trade with rUK would stop absolutely?

No, but would possibly be negatively affected by new trade barriers or tarrifs.

 

And all trade with EU would stay the same?

Yes, unless you have some inside info you are keeping from us all?

 

The trade arguments for leaving UK and Eu are similar, the point is that the UK marker is worth so much more to us and so represents a bigger gamble with more serious fall out.

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So I didn't say they were "all wrong"?

 

I suppose not, only the ones that disagree with your views

 

 

You guess wrong, as they hadn't called a second referendum at that stage.

 

It was in their manifesto :clangers2:

 

 

Yes really.

 

You didnt say "their word is worthless" but you intimated as much by saying they were disingenuous.

 

No, not really. It's a hell of a jump from me saying they said one thing that was perhaps disingenuous and "their word is worthless"

 

 

Stick to the queer bashing pal, politics isn't for you.

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That was going to be my next point. Politicians to some extent do what they believe is right and to some extent what they believe will get them voted in (ie what is popular). So either the SNP believe what they are doing is right, or they believe it will be popular. Either way, this means it is actually the correct thing to do. If it's popular then it means a significant number of people in Scotland want it. So a referendum seems like a good way to find out just how many.

 

Let's be honest, everyone knows the nation is split almost down the middle on this issue - it is very close, so to dismiss it off the table is to silence half the country. If the vote was 70% no, 30 % yes, then this would be dead and the SNP would most likely not be in power, but it wasn't, and they are, in fact going from 6 to 56 MPs at Westminster post-indyref.

 

Anyone trying to silence this issue is the one with the fingers in their ears.

 

:applause:

 

It is the right thing to do.

If "No" wins again it will be conclusive and we can get on with Brexit and all that.

 

I've read the full speech. It is very clear that the entire premise of this is that it is utterly pointless in any walk of life to sit back and accept a bad deal without seeking compromise. Compromise has been sought with the UK Govt and they've shown zero willingness to deal with the devolved parliaments. As such it is now almost entirely necessary to let the people speak. If we don't have this referendum then we will roll back to the 1980s again and the country will get bitter. We will be more divided without a referendum than with it.

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:applause:

 

It is the right thing to do.

If "No" wins again it will be conclusive and we can get on with Brexit and all that.

 

I've read the full speech. It is very clear that the entire premise of this is that it is utterly pointless in any walk of life to sit back and accept a bad deal without seeking compromise. Compromise has been sought with the UK Govt and they've shown zero willingness to deal with the devolved parliaments. As such it is now almost entirely necessary to let the people speak. If we don't have this referendum then we will roll back to the 1980s again and the country will get bitter. We will be more divided without a referendum than with it.

 

Sturgeon knew she would never get what she was asking for. I could ask her to increase the higher rate tax band to 45k in line with the rest of the UK but i know i'd get told to fuck off.

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its only been a matter of hours, already bbc and sky news are at it

 

Spain will block EU membership.

We can't join NATO

 

project fear 2 is up and running

 

There's a huge difference in the debate this time, the NO campaign didn't have to come up with any real reasons to stay as it was a vote to leave the UK or stay as is. Now the NO side have to give a picture of what the UK will look like when they leave the EU.

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The EU membership is crucial for me now - if Nicola can guarantee that Scotland would still be a member then it's a yes from me. I see Spanish MEPs are now suggesting they wouldn't block our membership so things do appear to have moved on.

No Chance of that happening. That's the problem. Convincing people to vote yes on the hope of staying in/re-joining the EU without it being guaranteed. She is writing cheques the SNP might not be able to cash.

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No Chance of that happening. That's the problem. Convincing people to vote yes on the hope of staying in/re-joining the EU without it being guaranteed. She is writing cheques the SNP might not be able to cash.

Why not? We weren't leaving last time.

 

Make the currency, EU membership and immigration policies clear and concrete and that'll make things a lot easier.

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Least now we know for sure the SNP don't give a fuck about anything but independence. Anything to take the focus away from the nats shambolic record in government I suppose.

 

Fuckwit Sturgeon should realise that not telling the whole truth is just as bad as lying when she keeps banging on about leaving the biggest trading block in the world*

 

*Scotland trades four times less with the EU than with the rest of the UK.

 

Currency issue unresolved.

 

Budget deficit massive.

 

Education goin to fuck.

 

Another independence referendum. Just what we need.

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Least now we know for sure the SNP don't give a fuck about anything but independence. Anything to take the focus away from the nats shambolic record in government I suppose.

 

Fuckwit Sturgeon should realise that not telling the whole truth is just as bad as lying when she keeps banging on about leaving the biggest trading block in the world*

 

*Scotland trades four times less with the EU than with the rest of the UK.

 

Currency issue unresolved.

 

Budget deficit massive.

 

Education goin to fuck.

 

Another independence referendum. Just what we need.

 

You do realise indyref2 is nae happening tomorrow aye?

 

Best way to get shot of the 'shambolic' SNP is to vote for independence. They're fucked then. Defunct.

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