Schapenneuker Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 9 minutes ago, Schapenneuker said: I know exactly what you meant, but I'm not sure that you understand that the Scottish government only have control of around 25% of Scottish economic levers. The other 75% is unsurprisingly in the hands of Westminster. And if they are a raging clusterfuck (which they have been for the last 15 years), it's impossible for the Scottish government to make a success of the Scottish economy. It's the equivalent of a household having an income of 100K, but with a mortgage of a million quid, 3 expensive Jags in the garage, and the parents in hock to their drug dealer. The dad then gives his kids 25K, and then tells them to go out buy their own houses, get their own 3 cars, and do it all without going into debt or getting a loan. So that's what I meant by it's important to be aware (and most people aren't) that the Scottish government does not 'run the Scottish economy'. There is a justifiable question which is 'are the Scottish government doing as well as they can do with the limited economic levers they have ?', but that's never the one that Unionists ask, because they don't want to admit that the Scottish economy is still very much under the control of the UK government. Nothing better than quoting myself and keeping a discussion going, but I just wanted add a couple of points... 1. You CANNOT have a balanced discussion about the economic performance of the Scottish government without recognising, understanding and acknowledging that they only have control of around 25% of Scotland's economic levers. Everything revolves around that fact. 2. I'll answer my own question in the last paragraph...yes, the SNP could have done better with the powers they have...but that same point applies to every single government worldwide. This is the point where it's fair and reasonable to judge Scotland's performance against the rest of the UK, and IMHO, in most important aspects of our life....possibly education excepted....Scotland has outperformed the rest of the UK. We generally have a better NHS, we have a fairer tax system, we have free higher education, free prescriptions, and we have outperformed the rest of the UK when it comes to inward investment for many years now. Yeap, there have been high profile fuck ups, but Westminster have had higher profile fuck ups, X 100. Unionists, and those simply ideologically opposed to independence, will ALWAYS want to judge the Scottish government to impossibly high standards, and ignore the huge amount of failings at Westminster which have rewarded us with austerity, stagnated living standards, the chaos of Brexit, culture wars, increasingly right wing governments and an insane divide between the haves and have nots, which makes the UK the most unequal country in the western world outside the USA. So given all that, the sane and educated view should always be that Westminster is dragging Scotland down in its death spiral, and that independence is the logical path forward. 4 Link to comment
elephantstone78 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 14 hours ago, Edwin Starr said: No the london government take much more than we get back . The Barnet formula is our own money. Can't believe people fall for that. The former bank of England says different about Scotland's wealth. If anyone knows its him right. I voted for independence and I say this with love as you seem a very decent guy, you’re wrong. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gers-stats-show-higher-public-spending-for-scotland-as-part-of-uk#:~:text=By pooling and sharing resources,to invest in those areas. Link to comment
Schapenneuker Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, elephantstone78 said: I voted for independence and I say this with love as you seem a very decent guy, you’re wrong. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/gers-stats-show-higher-public-spending-for-scotland-as-part-of-uk#:~:text=By pooling and sharing resources,to invest in those areas. I think you're both right. Under the present economic arrangements, Scotland receives extra funds from the UK government ( as do many areas of the UK). But the fact is that to apply that hypothetically to some point in the future when Scotland is independent, is just wrong. If Scotland had 100% control of it's own economy under independence....VAT, tax from oil and gas revenues etc etc....then the choices that the Scottish government made then (for instance, a much reduced Scottish defence force and therefore reduced costs) would impact on our everyday lives. At the moment, the Barnett formula somehow rewards Scotland and disadvantages us at the same time. Link to comment
elephantstone78 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 31 minutes ago, Schapenneuker said: I think you're both right. Under the present economic arrangements, Scotland receives extra funds from the UK government ( as do many areas of the UK). But the fact is that to apply that hypothetically to some point in the future when Scotland is independent, is just wrong. If Scotland had 100% control of it's own economy under independence....VAT, tax from oil and gas revenues etc etc....then the choices that the Scottish government made then (for instance, a much reduced Scottish defence force and therefore reduced costs) would impact on our everyday lives. At the moment, the Barnett formula somehow rewards Scotland and disadvantages us at the same time. Agree. And I would like us to have control over all fiscal levers, hence I voted for independence. However, I didn’t apply it hypothetically to some point in the future. I just stated the point we do quite well from the Barnett formula. Ed disagreed and I was just providing the evidence. I think independence voters that think we will somehow all be better off and won’t have poverty, culture wars, youth unemployment and a large disparity between haves and have nots, are kidding themselves on. If anything, given our deficit and high public spending our credit rating would likely be poorer than the uk, hence it would cost us more to borrow money meaning there would be pressure to cut spending or really raise taxes. Neither are popular. 1 Link to comment
For Fecks Sake Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 12 minutes ago, Schapenneuker said: Nothing better than quoting myself and keeping a discussion going, but I just wanted add a couple of points... 1. You CANNOT have a balanced discussion about the economic performance of the Scottish government without recognising, understanding and acknowledging that they only have control of around 25% of Scotland's economic levers. Everything revolves around that fact. 2. I'll answer my own question in the last paragraph...yes, the SNP could have done better with the powers they have...but that same point applies to every single government worldwide. This is the point where it's fair and reasonable to judge Scotland's performance against the rest of the UK, and IMHO, in most important aspects of our life....possibly education excepted....Scotland has outperformed the rest of the UK. We generally have a better NHS, we have a fairer tax system, we have free higher education, free prescriptions, and we have outperformed the rest of the UK when it comes to inward investment for many years now. Yeap, there have been high profile fuck ups, but Westminster have had higher profile fuck ups, X 100. Unionists, and those simply ideologically opposed to independence, will ALWAYS want to judge the Scottish government to impossibly high standards, and ignore the huge amount of failings at Westminster which have rewarded us with austerity, stagnated living standards, the chaos of Brexit, culture wars, increasingly right wing governments and an insane divide between the haves and have nots, which makes the UK the most unequal country in the western world outside the USA. So given all that, the sane and educated view should always be that Westminster is dragging Scotland down in its death spiral, and that independence is the logical path forward. Good post and agree with majority of what you say. I appreciate we don't have full control over the economic performance but we should be doing better with the aspects we do have control over as opposed to focusing on topics like gender \ greens that won't move the economic needle, if anything stifle economic growth. "the SNP could have done better with the powers they have...but that same point applies to every single government worldwide." is 100% accurate but there are some on here who don't believe that and promote how amazing the economy in Scotland would be if we were independent. My argument is that I am not seeing any evidence that we have the politicians to drive Scotland forward from an Economic perspective based on the performance with the powers that we already have. Sorry but don't agree with "We generally have a better NHS, we have a fairer tax system, we have free higher education, free prescriptions, and we have outperformed the rest of the UK when it comes to inward investment for many years now" - these are not free, we pay for these via our higher than the rest of the UK taxes. The NHS is Scotland is exactly like the NHS in the rest of the UK, not fit for purpose in its current form and needs modernisation. Again I am not seeing the appetite in Scotland to do anything other than throw more cash at it. I voted for independence and I 100% believe we will thrive as an independent nation, however it has to be recognised that there will be huge challenges and bumps in the journey for the following decades which never gets talked about. That and a new breed of politician who can drive the Independence cause because the current crop of SNP politicians certainly aren't anymore. 2 Link to comment
Clydeside_Sheep Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 For all this talk about 'financial levers' - no-one has a crystal ball, but what do people see as being possibly achieved by this? If something is within the SNP's control, the reliable outcome is that they make it more expensive - taxes, alcohol, train fairs etc - in return for no obvious gain. It seems the only trick they could try with full powers is to drop corporation tax to make us a tax haven? (Of course, this assumes they would be actually interested in boosting the economy & creating jobs etc - but that's by no means a safe assumption. They do not seem aware of these topics. They may prefer to try to increase stealth taxes for anyone who objects to their plan of allowing people to self-declare as bi-polar trans Labradors). in any case, Ireland has already got this role sown up for Europe. And it would go against our proud Scottish principles of fair taxation and people before profit etc, although - you know us left-wing Scots - if you don't like our principles, we have others. It would also antagonise our new EU Masters, who already resent Ireland's set up and seek to undermine it. I think its a safer bet that nationalists would immediately wring these new powers for every penny they could get, to fund another round of freebies, public sector expansion and pay rises. Or what other possibility might financial luminary Shona Robison come up with? 1 Link to comment
Schapenneuker Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 42 minutes ago, For Fecks Sake said: Good post and agree with majority of what you say. I appreciate we don't have full control over the economic performance but we should be doing better with the aspects we do have control over as opposed to focusing on topics like gender \ greens that won't move the economic needle, if anything stifle economic growth. "the SNP could have done better with the powers they have...but that same point applies to every single government worldwide." is 100% accurate but there are some on here who don't believe that and promote how amazing the economy in Scotland would be if we were independent. My argument is that I am not seeing any evidence that we have the politicians to drive Scotland forward from an Economic perspective based on the performance with the powers that we already have. Sorry but don't agree with "We generally have a better NHS, we have a fairer tax system, we have free higher education, free prescriptions, and we have outperformed the rest of the UK when it comes to inward investment for many years now" - these are not free, we pay for these via our higher than the rest of the UK taxes. The NHS is Scotland is exactly like the NHS in the rest of the UK, not fit for purpose in its current form and needs modernisation. Again I am not seeing the appetite in Scotland to do anything other than throw more cash at it. I voted for independence and I 100% believe we will thrive as an independent nation, however it has to be recognised that there will be huge challenges and bumps in the journey for the following decades which never gets talked about. That and a new breed of politician who can drive the Independence cause because the current crop of SNP politicians certainly aren't anymore. I agree with all of that. I shouldn't have used the word 'free'...I realise that these are choices made by the Scottish government, and that they come from a budget, so not 'free'. Lazy typing 😕 1 Link to comment
Schapenneuker Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 16 minutes ago, Clydeside_Sheep said: For all this talk about 'financial levers' - no-one has a crystal ball, but what do people see as being possibly achieved by this? If something is within the SNP's control, the reliable outcome is that they make it more expensive - taxes, alcohol, train fairs etc - in return for no obvious gain. It seems the only trick they could try with full powers is to drop corporation tax to make us a tax haven? (Of course, this assumes they would be actually interested in boosting the economy & creating jobs etc - but that's by no means a safe assumption. They do not seem aware of these topics. They may prefer to try to increase stealth taxes for anyone who objects to their plan of allowing people to self-declare as bi-polar trans Labradors). in any case, Ireland has already got this role sown up for Europe. And it would go against our proud Scottish principles of fair taxation and people before profit etc, although - you know us left-wing Scots - if you don't like our principles, we have others. It would also antagonise our new EU Masters, who already resent Ireland's set up and seek to undermine it. I think its a safer bet that nationalists would immediately wring these new powers for every penny they could get, to fund another round of freebies, public sector expansion and pay rises. Or what other possibility might financial luminary Shona Robison come up with? You lose the argument when you start making a fool of yourself. Try arguing with reason, instead of sounding like a wee child. 2 3 Link to comment
Edwin Starr Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 5 hours ago, Schapenneuker said: I know exactly what you meant, but I'm not sure that you understand that the Scottish government only have control of around 25% of Scottish economic levers. The other 75% is unsurprisingly in the hands of Westminster. And if they are a raging clusterfuck (which they have been for the last 15 years), it's impossible for the Scottish government to make a success of the Scottish economy. It's the equivalent of a household having an income of 100K, but with a mortgage of a million quid, 3 expensive Jags in the garage, and the parents in hock to their drug dealer. The dad then gives his kids 25K, and then tells them to go out buy their own houses, get their own 3 cars, and do it all without going into debt or getting a loan. So that's what I meant by it's important to be aware (and most people aren't) that the Scottish government does not 'run the Scottish economy'. There is a justifiable question which is 'are the Scottish government doing as well as they can do with the limited economic levers they have ?', but that's never the one that Unionists ask, because they don't want to admit that the Scottish economy is still very much under the control of the UK government. The uk government hold all the aces when it comes to the financial stuff. They also hide how much Scotland really makes from the Scots .. Embarrassing knowing that and still voting for the onion . 2 Link to comment
For Fecks Sake Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Edwin Starr said: The uk government hold all the aces when it comes to the financial stuff. They also hide how much Scotland really makes from the Scots .. Embarrassing knowing that and still voting for the onion . If only we had the SNP continuing to fight tooth and nail pushing the independence agenda forward Buc. Sadly we don't. 1 1 Link to comment
manboobs109 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 1 hour ago, Edwin Starr said: The uk government hold all the aces when it comes to the financial stuff. They also hide how much Scotland really makes from the Scots .. Embarrassing knowing that and still voting for the onion . Must bring tears to your eyes 1 4 Link to comment
Edwin Starr Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 21 hours ago, patrick bateman said: No The 'bedroom tax' is a reduction in benefit. Universal credit is not taxed. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue. Oh I understand it alright it's pretty straightforward. You know that right? Link to comment
Jocky Balboa Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 3 hours ago, For Fecks Sake said: If only we had the SNP continuing to fight tooth and nail pushing the independence agenda forward Buc. Sadly we don't. What often gets overlooked, are the amount of defectors from New Labour from 2014. The likes of Mhairi Black, Tommy Shepherd et al, were simply swapping the old establishment party for the new one and using it to push their hard left "socialist" agenda. Independence was not - and never will be - their priority. Not to mention the entrenched careerists like Wishart and Robertson, who make quite a tidy living from being protest MP's, only dangling the indy carrot when they need your vote. Link to comment
Clydeside_Sheep Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 9 hours ago, Schapenneuker said: You lose the argument when you start making a fool of yourself. Try arguing with reason, instead of sounding like a wee child. So, you are saying you have no idea of what possibilities additional financial levers might offer, its just something you throw around to make yourself look informed? Link to comment
ERNIE Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I have only realised in the last few years what an opportunity was lost by not having a seperate oil fund like Norway.Scotland entrusted the UK govt with looking after these precious revenues but we have nothing to show for it now.All spent by UK govt mainly on tax breaks for the wealthy. And now people blame the Snp for not having enough resources to do all the things they would like. 1 1 1 Link to comment
For Fecks Sake Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 minute ago, ERNIE said: I have only realised in the last few years what an opportunity was lost by not having a seperate oil fund like Norway.Scotland entrusted the UK govt with looking after these precious revenues but we have nothing to show for it now.All spent by UK govt mainly on tax breaks for the wealthy. And now people blame the Snp for not having enough resources to do all the things they would like. You only realised this in the last few years? 1 Link to comment
Parklife Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 8 minutes ago, ERNIE said: I have only realised in the last few years what an opportunity was lost by not having a seperate oil fund like Norway.Scotland entrusted the UK govt with looking after these precious revenues but we have nothing to show for it now.All spent by UK govt mainly on tax breaks for the wealthy. And now people blame the Snp for not having enough resources to do all the things they would like. That's unfair. We also spent it on destroying Iraq and Afghanistan. 1 3 Link to comment
ERNIE Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 21 minutes ago, For Fecks Sake said: You only realised this in the last few years? Well maybe 10..It was probably Brexit that made me see things differently. Tbh it surprises me now that anyone votes Snp such is the deluge of anti Snp stuff in most of the media. Link to comment
The Gee Man Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 hours ago, ERNIE said: I have only realised in the last few years what an opportunity was lost by not having a seperate oil fund like Norway.Scotland entrusted the UK govt with looking after these precious revenues but we have nothing to show for it now.All spent by UK govt mainly on tax breaks for the wealthy. And now people blame the Snp for not having enough resources to do all the things they would like. There is no doubt the UK monopoly have squandered oil revenue, but this current SNP regime are so deluded they have squandered the Indy movement. Until it finds it’s way back to independence it’s a lost cause 1 1 Link to comment
elephantstone78 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, Parklife said: That's unfair. We also spent it on destroying Iraq and Afghanistan. And repairs to the late queen’s house after the fire. Link to comment
sigh Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, The Gee Man said: There is no doubt the UK monopoly have squandered oil revenue, but this current SNP regime are so deluded they have squandered the Indy movement. Until it finds it’s way back to independence it’s a lost cause they have a campervan to drive around in to find their way back 1 Link to comment
Edwin Starr Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 5 hours ago, Parklife said: That's unfair. We also spent it on destroying Iraq and Afghanistan. And Palestine 🇵🇸. 1 Link to comment
shut up meg Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 7 hours ago, Parklife said: That's unfair. We also spent it on destroying Iraq and Afghanistan. And developing the south east of England in the 70s and 80s 1 Link to comment
Redforever86 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 The MPs spent it on vanity projects, subsidising their drinks and fancy London flats, the royals spent it on flights to Epstein's island. The rest was just wasted. 1 Link to comment
NEM Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 8 hours ago, Parklife said: That's unfair. We also spent it on destroying Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq aye. The Taliban were doing a decent job of destroying Afghanistan before we stuck our beaks in Link to comment
RedArmyFakshun Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, shut up meg said: And developing the south east of England in the 70s and 80s Goes on to this day. London has european level infrastructure Scale of investment permeates northward until you hit Manchester Scotland is a fucked over backwater that can't even compete with the Baltic countries 2 Link to comment
Edwin Starr Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 16 hours ago, sigh said: they have a campervan to drive around in to find their way back Well that covid contracts that were given to friends cost the tax payer millions . Anyone seen the bra queen ? Oh that's right she went into hiding . 🐄 Link to comment
BrianFaePerth Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Trump should just come into Scotland, bulldoze it and turn it into a golf resort. If it’s good enough for Gaza then it’s good enough for Scotland Link to comment
Ten Caat Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 2 hours ago, BrianFaePerth said: If it’s good enough for Gaza then it’s good enough for Scotland Love Dodgy Link to comment
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