Academies

[Wester Hailes Skins]

Just wondered your views on the Aberdeen academy. And academies generally. 

Hearts have had a huge slew of coaches and access to the best facilities in Scotland at Oriam. For which we pay a lot to hire, as we don't own it. 

Levein as DoF pulled the beanie hat over Budge's eyes. But our academy conveyor belt has produced nothing. Hickey was more a product of Celtic. We're still fannying about with Cochrane, Moore, Henderson, Logan. These players come through, get limited game time, then fall down the leagues. We have the oldest first team average age in the league but go on about our youth set up. 

Now look at the young talent at one club, Inverness (Deas, MacGregor, Harper, Duffy, McDonald) getting first team action. And picture across Scotland at Hamilton, Raith, etc. etc. etc. 

Are academies worth the investment at clubs like Hearts and Aberdeen when this money could just buy 2 or 3 of the best young players in the lower leagues each year? 

Maybe you've had more success up there but I couldn't think of too many graduates. Wright? McKenna? Didn't a young forward go to Accies? 

My understanding after Brexit is that English clubs are now scouring Scottish academies for bargains, as Europe is less accessible. So now, even if there is a gem or two, they'll be picked up before even seeing the first team. 

Personally, I'd scrap ours. Not sure it pays for itself or helps the first team. I'd rather hear we've bought MacGregor from Inverness and Tait from Raith. And maybe a youngster or two getting released at Rangers and Celtic. 

Do you hear of any youngsters about to burst onto the Aberdeen first team stage that give you faith in your academy? Are your new stadium plans committing to an academy? I think they're just ego. 

 

[aberdeen1970]

I think academies are essential for the lifeblood of most Scottish clubs provided they are run correctly.  Aberdeen should always have a clear pathway from its youth system to its first team at the heart of the club's culture. Not many will make it at Aberdeen but many will go on to careers elsewhere so not only does it potentially provide a talent pipeline to Aberdeen it also helps provide a wider eco culture for young players.  As well as a potential source of income when the good ones really make it and move on for a decent fee. 

The question is why are the likes of Hamilton and Inverness more successful (if they indeed are). And if they are how can we learn from them.  I suspect it probably comes down to their willingness to provide consistent first team opportunities at an earlier age. 

Why do you ask?  Is it because Hibs have scrapped much of their academy system? If so I think they will regret this in the long run. Previous youth players moving on paid for most of Easter Road and their training ground. 

[sooth_stander]

I think a successful and vibrant youth policy is essential for Aberdeen; in fact every Scottish club including the cheeks.

If its good enough for Inverness and Hamilton, with the respective resources, we should be doing it ten times better. We aren't.

Wasn't it part of Diamond Dave’s glossy brochure at the start of the season, outlining the clubs policy going forward, which in reality was the death knell for McInnes right there and then? 50% of the team to be youth academy sourced?

The problem is that the managers we have had; McInnes, Brown, McGhoo, Calderwood etc, none had any interest in promoting youth, or not to the level that they should be. Ryan Fraser only got a shottie cos we had an injury crisis; if it hadn’t been for that, he might have been lost to the game.

We produce a smattering of young players in spite of our youth policy, not because of it.

And then we have the academy director. Gothenburg legend etc etc but is he the best man for the job? In my opinion, whoever the new DoF is, needs to assume that role.

So to answer your question, no we should not be binning our youth policy, quite the contrary. The only issue I have, and it's more an SFA fuck up, why should any club coach a young lad from 10 years old (maybe younger) till he's 16, and then he gets picked off by another Pro Youth club? That can't be right. Either bin the Pro Youth strategy and let the boys play with their schools, their boys clubs and then only allow the senior clubs to step in at age 16 (the old S forms) OR, clubs needs to get weighed in by the buying club if he signs for someone else at 16

[slippers]

The reason why it works so well for the smaller teams is because they don’t have as big a budget. We would have youth players at aberdeen on more money than some of Hamilton’s first team regulars. Hamilton will have first team regulars getting paid 400-500 a week and we probably have some youth players on that amount that will never play for first team. With there budget they are forced to give these players a chance. Many sink but will be a number that step up to plate because they have been given that chance. It’s not hard for aberdeen to go out and pay someone with a fair bit of experience £1000 a week to warn the bench but that would be the wage for a key player at Hamilton.
 

There is definitely a balance to be had. The more youth you play the more youth players you have to sell on but equally the more given a chance  the poorer your team potentially performs as a number of them probably aren’t good enough and never will be good enough. 

[Guest milne_afc]

Academies are an exercise in fundraising. Standard of youth prospects has declined rapidly since the academies became part of the set up. Maybe just a coincidence.

[Geoff_Tipps]

Graham Rix was a big fan of the Hearts youth Academy.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

4 hours ago, milne_afc said:

Academies are an exercise in fundraising. Standard of youth prospects has declined rapidly since the academies became part of the set up. Maybe just a coincidence.

Tend to agree with this.  Looking for one gem in every age group with the remainder there to pay the subs.

To be fair I don’t think the Project Brave Elite thing is working.  It’s almost the above structure on steroids.  Get 8 teams (I think it’s 8 elite??) with their single prospect and insist they play each other.  That way the best of the best of the prospects floats to the top which is great.  Just not for the rest of his squad, the other squads not to mention the countless squads below elite who are restricted in who they can play.

It’s been immaterial for a year of course, which will bring its own problems.

[RUL]

I'd say our academy has had involvement in many a player coming through, indeed 2 of them will be league winners in Scotland this season alone, whilst mckenna 3m fee covers the costs for 3 years. 

The issue is the manager not trusting youth. By that I mean giving regular game time to young players, irrespective of mistakes and not only mcinnes, as it predates him I think. 

If we look at Taylor, he's basically a league 2 defender in England who plays regularly. 

We have 3 academy players playing in the championship. Grimmer a right back at Wycombe, obviously McKenna at Forest and Rose at Coventry. 

Listened to a podcast by Grimmer recently, where he talked about leaving Aberdeen for Fulham. It was a great opportunity for him and probably a decent wage. However his point was he was in the Aberdeen squad at 16 but by 18 he had played only 4 league games. It was not a difficult decision for him to leave because he wasn't getting a game. Think that was under Craig brown. 

Rose left under McInnes having played 1 game at the age of 21. It was obvious he had to leave but he's done well to get to Coventry in the championship, having went to Ayr. I think it's clear he was right to leave at 21 but who knows what playing at 17 or 18 regularly would have done for his development. 

I use those two because they are clearly capable of playing championship football and both are academy graduates. If we signed a championship right back and centre back this summer I think most of us would be encouraged by signing players of that level. 

For me developing youngsters is not about throwing a 17 year old on 4 or 5 times with ten minutes to go. The reason Hamilton have been successful is because they give youngsters a chance. There is a clear pathway. 

One thing I'd say is Dean campbell has been given good support by mcinnes in terms of game time. Hopefully in a few years Dean will even more developed and at 21 dominating games and mcinnes support will be vindicated. 

[aberdeen1970]

1 hour ago, RUL said:

I'd say our academy has had involvement in many a player coming through, indeed 2 of them will be league winners in Scotland this season alone, whilst mckenna 3m fee covers the costs for 3 years. 

The issue is the manager not trusting youth. By that I mean giving regular game time to young players, irrespective of mistakes and not only mcinnes, as it predates him I think. 

If we look at Taylor, he's basically a league 2 defender in England who plays regularly. 

We have 3 academy players playing in the championship. Grimmer a right back at Wycombe, obviously McKenna at Forest and Rose at Coventry. 

Listened to a podcast by Grimmer recently, where he talked about leaving Aberdeen for Fulham. It was a great opportunity for him and probably a decent wage. However his point was he was in the Aberdeen squad at 16 but by 18 he had played only 4 league games. It was not a difficult decision for him to leave because he wasn't getting a game. Think that was under Craig brown. 

Rose left under McInnes having played 1 game at the age of 21. It was obvious he had to leave but he's done well to get to Coventry in the championship, having went to Ayr. I think it's clear he was right to leave at 21 but who knows what playing at 17 or 18 regularly would have done for his development. 

I use those two because they are clearly capable of playing championship football and both are academy graduates. If we signed a championship right back and centre back this summer I think most of us would be encouraged by signing players of that level. 

For me developing youngsters is not about throwing a 17 year old on 4 or 5 times with ten minutes to go. The reason Hamilton have been successful is because they give youngsters a chance. There is a clear pathway. 

One thing I'd say is Dean campbell has been given good support by mcinnes in terms of game time. Hopefully in a few years Dean will even more developed and at 21 dominating games and mcinnes support will be vindicated. 

Well said min 

[Dynamo]

I think academies are very useful but you need a first team manager that buys in to it. 

[shut up meg]

The expectations and the budget at Hamilton are substantially lower, Rice would probably play Ash Taylor if he could afford him but needs to balance the books by playing youngsters, they in turn get a run of games that helps their development. He can also afford to go on a few winless runs because his main goal at the start of the season is to avoid relegation, AFC are expected to win the majority of their games and for whatever reason, DMC doesn't trust them enough to play a lot of games.

[NEM]

3 hours ago, RUL said:

I'd say our academy has had involvement in many a player coming through, indeed 2 of them will be league winners in Scotland this season alone, whilst mckenna 3m fee covers the costs for 3 years. 

The issue is the manager not trusting youth. By that I mean giving regular game time to young players, irrespective of mistakes and not only mcinnes, as it predates him I think. 

If we look at Taylor, he's basically a league 2 defender in England who plays regularly. 

We have 3 academy players playing in the championship. Grimmer a right back at Wycombe, obviously McKenna at Forest and Rose at Coventry. 

Listened to a podcast by Grimmer recently, where he talked about leaving Aberdeen for Fulham. It was a great opportunity for him and probably a decent wage. However his point was he was in the Aberdeen squad at 16 but by 18 he had played only 4 league games. It was not a difficult decision for him to leave because he wasn't getting a game. Think that was under Craig brown. 

Rose left under McInnes having played 1 game at the age of 21. It was obvious he had to leave but he's done well to get to Coventry in the championship, having went to Ayr. I think it's clear he was right to leave at 21 but who knows what playing at 17 or 18 regularly would have done for his development. 

I use those two because they are clearly capable of playing championship football and both are academy graduates. If we signed a championship right back and centre back this summer I think most of us would be encouraged by signing players of that level. 

For me developing youngsters is not about throwing a 17 year old on 4 or 5 times with ten minutes to go. The reason Hamilton have been successful is because they give youngsters a chance. There is a clear pathway. 

One thing I'd say is Dean campbell has been given good support by mcinnes in terms of game time. Hopefully in a few years Dean will even more developed and at 21 dominating games and mcinnes support will be vindicated. 

Spot on.  We should never be signing dross like Taylor, Ojo and Main.  Complete waste of cash.  Be better using the budget to sign a handful of quality players and supplementing that with youth.

[Parklife]

3 minutes ago, NEM said:

Spot on.  We should never be signing dross like Taylor, Ojo and Main.  Complete waste of cash.  Be better using the budget to sign a handful of quality players and supplementing that with youth.

Yup. I said almost the exact same thing on a thread a while back. We need to be giving guys proper chances. Filling the bench with youngsters and them getting the chance when we have an injury or suspension. Signings like the ones you point out are infuriating to me. Dross journeymen players as expensive cover.  

[NEM]

2 minutes ago, Parklife said:

Yup. I said almost the exact same thing on a thread a while back. We need to be giving guys proper chances. Filling the bench with youngsters and them getting the chance when we have an injury or suspension. Signings like the ones you point out are infuriating to me. Dross journeymen players as expensive cover.  

Far better giving youth game time who have potential to be good than players who have proven they'll never be more than journeymen.  Not winning anything with or making any cash out of those useless cunts.  Also frees up some budget to sign a (theoretically) higher class of player for the first 11

[Parklife]

8 minutes ago, NEM said:

Far better giving youth game time who have potential to be good than players who have proven they'll never be more than journeymen.  Not winning anything with or making any cash out of those useless cunts.  Also frees up some budget to sign a (theoretically) higher class of player for the first 11

Spot on. 

[Dynamo]

2 hours ago, Millertime said:

This is utter rubbish

Mclennan gets loads of chances,  as does Campbell and can you honestly say they deserve more?

lol. 

Who said anything about McInnes? 

So you think youth academy players can progress to the first team without a mangers buy in? No THAT is utter rubbish.

[NEM]

2 hours ago, Dynamo said:

lol. 

Who said anything about McInnes? 

So you think youth academy players can progress to the first team without a mangers buy in? No THAT is utter rubbish.

BOOM ?

[Stoneybloke]

Are academies worth the bother?

Even if somebody really good emerges, they are more than likely just going to be a target for other clubs at bargain basement prices.

The ones who remain may be OK, but rarely seem to be anything other than squad players who maybe last 2 or three years before they leave, quite often going on to better things with other clubs.

[afc1903mad]

2 hours ago, Stoneybloke said:

Are academies worth the bother?

Even if somebody really good emerges, they are more than likely just going to be a target for other clubs at bargain basement prices.

The ones who remain may be OK, but rarely seem to be anything other than squad players who maybe last 2 or three years before they leave, quite often going on to better things with other clubs.

Academies are worth it, but also it’s worth bearing in mind it’s a very small percentage that go on to make a breakthrough and gain regular football.

This is for a number of reasons.

Our model should be to produce and sell on

[afc1903mad]

8 hours ago, Millertime said:

This is utter rubbish

Mclennan gets loads of chances,  as does Campbell and can you honestly say they deserve more?

I can see a very good right wingback in McLennan if developed there.

‘His decision making often is poor, but he probably needs a decent run of games to build his confidence and composure

[afc1903mad]

8 hours ago, NEM said:

Spot on.  We should never be signing dross like Taylor, Ojo and Main.  Complete waste of cash.  Be better using the budget to sign a handful of quality players and supplementing that with youth.

I don’t see where the continued criticism comes from for Taylor.

He’s a decent enough centre half when he keeps it simple and to be honest, this year he’s been decent enough and better than most centre half’s in the league.

There are other areas of concern other than replacing Taylor for me

[afc1903mad]

On 3/3/2021 at 2:29 PM, Wester Hailes Skins said:

I'd rather hear we've bought MacGregor from Inverness and Tait from Raith.

 

Tait will go to a far better club than Hearts

[thurso]

This isn’t just an aberdeen thing it’s the whole league as I don’t think the problem stems from the academies it’s the pathway through to the first team and I think it’s the same for all the teams. 
Look at the teams that have won youth/reserve/developmental league (or what ever it’s called these days) teams win it and very few of the players make the breakthrough to the first team.
Celtic won it year after year and would release practically the whole team at the end of each season. Even when Ross county won it they released most of the squad when you would of thought they would of given them a fair chance in the first team as they weren’t that good but I’m not sure if any did.  
 

I think of all derek mccinnes failings giving youth a chance isn’t one of them but I actually think young players have to play twice as good at any team to stay in the team as older ones as generally they get in because of an injury but if they don’t perform exceptionally they are out when the older player returns. 

[NEM]

44 minutes ago, afc1903mad said:

I don’t see where the continued criticism comes from for Taylor.

He’s a decent enough centre half when he keeps it simple and to be honest, this year he’s been decent enough and better than most centre half’s in the league.

There are other areas of concern other than replacing Taylor for me

Well never compete with league two journeymen (rejects in Taylor’s case) in the team. If you’re happy winning fuck all and finishing a distant third or fourth at best then aye I suppose he’s adequate ??‍♂️
 

The part in bold is highly debatable but should be a given considering he’s playing for the third biggest team in the country 

[afc1903mad]

1 hour ago, NEM said:

Well never compete with league two journeymen (rejects in Taylor’s case) in the team. If you’re happy winning fuck all and finishing a distant third or fourth at best then aye I suppose he’s adequate ??‍♂️
 

The part in bold is highly debatable but should be a given considering he’s playing for the third biggest team in the country 

I think he’s been our best defender this season. Yes ahead of Hoban and Considine.

I think playing in the middle of a back three suits him as he is not inclined to step out so much with the ball.

‘This summer will be a huge transition of players and for me, Taylor is probably one of the least on the priorities that need to be replaced.

[aberdeen1970]

2 hours ago, afc1903mad said:

I think he’s been our best defender this season. Yes ahead of Hoban and Considine.

I think playing in the middle of a back three suits him as he is not inclined to step out so much with the ball.

‘This summer will be a huge transition of players and for me, Taylor is probably one of the least on the priorities that need to be replaced.

Aye but it's telling that we've hidden Taylor in the centre of the three so he doesn't have to do too much on the ball other than win his headers or pass it to Hoban or Considine. 

When ideally when you're playing with a three at the back you'd want your central guy to be a ball player who can step into midfield. 

[King Street Loon]

5 hours ago, afc1903mad said:

I can see a very good right wingback in McLennan if developed there.

‘His decision making often is poor, but he probably needs a decent run of games to build his confidence and composure

Not sure what drugs you're on but there's no way McLennan is or can be developed into a wing back. This whole obsession McInnes has with playing his wingers as wing backs is holding us back.

Play players in their proper positions and reap the benefits...hopefully. 

Plenty prospects in the youth teams who could do a job given the change and encouragement. 

[strachanmcgheegoal]

You can get off with it (wingers at wing back) if you intend to play 80%+ of the game in their half.  If there’s a tactic that screams 3rd at best it’s our full back policy 2014-21.

[afc1903mad]

9 hours ago, King Street Loon said:

Not sure what drugs you're on but there's no way McLennan is or can be developed into a wing back. This whole obsession McInnes has with playing his wingers as wing backs is holding us back.

Play players in their proper positions and reap the benefits...hopefully. 

Plenty prospects in the youth teams who could do a job given the change and encouragement. 

Not on anything, maybe just able to see things differently from yourself.

certainly McLennan has the attributes to be very successful in that position, far better in my opinion than just as an out and out winger.

His consistency and decision making does need to be developed further.

[afc1903mad]

9 hours ago, aberdeen1970 said:

Aye but it's telling that we've hidden Taylor in the centre of the three so he doesn't have to do too much on the ball other than win his headers or pass it to Hoban or Considine. 

When ideally when you're playing with a three at the back you'd want your central guy to be a ball player who can step into midfield. 

That’s one way, the other option is to allow the wide centre half pairing to be able to double up wide (as Hoban often does) with Taylor shifting across and covering.