Spl Top 10?

[beer gut]

From http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9359765.stm

 

The 12 Scottish Premier League clubs have reached a broad agreement at a meeting at Hampden for a 10-team top league and a second tier of 12 teams.

The SPL will now consult the Scottish Football Association and the Scottish Football League to progress the idea.

A top tier of 14 teams had looked the most likely alternative to the 10-10 arrangement proposed by the SPL after some clubs had voiced reservations.

But Monday's meeting suggests those clubs are now convinced of its merits.

 

What can i say. Shows how much the fans opinion means these twats. They will probably set the game back even more.

[RTYD]

Looks like the clubs have a broad agreement for a top 10 and then a second SPL tier of 12.

 

Money talks.

 

BBC website

[RTYD]

From http://news.bbc.co.u...rem/9359765.stm

 

The 12 Scottish Premier League clubs have reached a broad agreement at a meeting at Hampden for a 10-team top league and a second tier of 12 teams.

The SPL will now consult the Scottish Football Association and the Scottish Football League to progress the idea.

A top tier of 14 teams had looked the most likely alternative to the 10-10 arrangement proposed by the SPL after some clubs had voiced reservations.

But Monday's meeting suggests those clubs are now convinced of its merits.

 

What can i say. Shows how much the fans opinion means these twats. They will probably set the game back even more.

 

 

To be fair I can't recall any interest group ever canvassing fans for their opinions.

[Sonoftherock]

This could be the final nail in the coffin for Scottish football.

 

Too many greedy chairmen, only interested in lining their pockets in the short term.

[beer gut]

To be fair I can't recall any interest group ever canvassing fans for their opinions.

 

Personally i think its a backward step. The game needs total reform from grass roots to fairer distribution of money etc etc etc. Changing to 10 teams will do eff all. I'd like to see a 20 team top division.

[K-9]

To be fair I can't recall any interest group ever canvassing fans for their opinions.

There was a report from a handful of fans from all Scottish League clubs and unsurprisingly the fans of SFL clubs said they would love 18 team SPL. Imagine that - fans of the likes of Raith, Cowdenbeath, Falkirk, QOTS, Morton, Ayr, Stirling etc thinking that 18 teams would give their club a possible shot at top league football.

[K-9]

Personally i think its a backward step. The game needs total reform from grass roots to fairer distribution of money etc etc etc. Changing to 10 teams will do eff all. I'd like to see a 20 team top division.

Which 20 teams deserve top league football in this country?

[Ernie McCracken]

Can just imagine it

 

SM "Ticket sales are down and we're not getting enought money. What will we do?"

 

AFC Employee

[donaldoni]

Which 20 teams deserve top league football in this country?

 

Not really sure thats the way to look at it tbh.

 

We need the right structure in place for a sensible competition - only then will teams emerge to find their plavce and this will take 5-10 years if we have the right structure in place with a system to help expand and improve the teams at the top.

 

If its just a case of saying which teams deserve top team football in Scotland we'd have a top league of 2 teams. After all the OF are the only teams that win the league so??

 

I don't agree with that sort of principle when determining how the league competition should be set up.

[donaldoni]

Can just imagine it

 

SM "Ticket sales are down and we're not getting enought money. What will we do?"

 

AFC Employee

[Ross the Red]

fantastic news, the more money coming into Scottish football the better.

[donaldoni]

fantastic news, the more money coming into Scottish football the better.

 

Why?

 

The clubs will just pay the same sh*t players more wages as they compete with each other.

 

Not sure where the assumption this'll bring more money in come from anyway?

[K-9]

Why?

 

The clubs will just pay the same sh*t players more wages as they compete with each other.

 

Not sure where the assumption this'll bring more money in come from anyway?

As opposed to larger league where clubs like Aberdeen losing massive parts of their income and having to cut wage bill even further meaning even more talent at likes of Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts, United etc will leave to go to either old firm or down south. Scottish football would lose all its talent and even league 2 clubs down south would be able to pay more.

[RAZOR]

Was their a time frame set for when this would start?

 

Did any club bother to oppose the decision this time around?

[Bamber]

fantastic news, the more money coming into Scottish football the better.

 

 

i dont really get the difference between a 10 12 or 14 team league

 

Arguement against 10 is you play the same team 4 times

 

well in a 12 team league you play 5 teams 4 times and 6 teams 3 times.

 

in a 14 team league (with a 6 to 8 split) you'll play 5 teams 4 times and 8 teams 3 times if you want to be top 6 (if you do a 7 - 7 split well you do the maths)

 

so for a top 6 team which we should expect as a minimum we will be playing the teams we want to play 4 times anyway so absolutely no real difference from a 10 team league

 

in some way the split HELPS the OF. Us smaller teams hibs hearts etc etc still see a win vs the OF as bonus points and where we need to pick up our points is aginst the lower teams and we have less games against the lower teams in a 12 or 14 team league - so they area where we might pick up points is shut off to us. Come post split you have 4 teams all battling against each other taking points off each other instead of strengthening positions against the OF playing lesser league opposition

 

Imagine 3 games to go and AFC are 3rd 5pts behind rangers. would you prefer to be playing st mirren hamilton and St Johnstone in those last 3 games or hibs hearts and celtic? the split HELPS the OF in the last games of the season as all games are hard post split. with a 10 team league the last 3 games could be as below.

 

The split has two main problems

 

1 Unable to plan afterMay

2 Unbalanced fixtures

 

12 and 14 team leagues leave that problem - 10 doesnt

 

beyond 14 I personally have a problem with strength in depth. a 16 team league with 2 up two down requires 20 decent teams - otherwise you'll have 4 teams continually swapping SPL1 and SPL2 becuase there will be no competition. I dont think we have 20 decent teams across SPL and div 1 and you need that for 16

 

So 12 or 14 still gives us a split with its inherent problems

You still play the same teams 4 times a year

It benefits the OF to have a split

There isnt enough strength in depth for a 16 + team league

 

 

And that is nothing to do with money anywhere

[RUL]

There was a report from a handful of fans from all Scottish League clubs and unsurprisingly the fans of SFL clubs said they would love 18 team SPL. Imagine that - fans of the likes of Raith, Cowdenbeath, Falkirk, QOTS, Morton, Ayr, Stirling etc thinking that 18 teams would give their club a possible shot at top league football.

 

Not quite true, Supporters Direct did a survey of 5,000.

[Tord31]

I think 10 team SPL, 12 team championship and regional leagues below that would breathe fresh air into Scottish football imho.

[beer gut]

Which 20 teams deserve top league football in this country?

 

The 20 teams that have the most points at the end of the season. Put them in a league of 20. Play each other home and away. Scrap the split.

 

The absolute TOP priority should be stimulating better competition within all the leagues. Fairer distribution of wealth would go a long way towards this but it never gets discussed because the OF will never release their grip on the money. The fact that it needs an 11-1 vote to change how the money is distributed means it will never EVER happen with the current voting rules . All the clubs are doing is looking at their accounts and adjusting the league to improve their bottom line. This is not the way forward. The clubs need to look at the bigger picture. THE OF always moan about lack of competition domestically but at the same time they crush anything that threatens there grip on the SPL. They need to realise that better competition at home will benefit everyone.

[Bamber]

The 20 teams that have the most points at the end of the season. Put them in a league of 20. Play each other home and away. Scrap the split.

 

The absolute TOP priority should be stimulating better competition within all the leagues. Fairer distribution of wealth would go a long way towards this but it never gets discussed because the OF will never release their grip on the money. The fact that it needs an 11-1 vote to change how the money is distributed means it will never EVER happen with the current voting rules . All the clubs are doing is looking at their accounts and adjusting the league to improve their bottom line. This is not the way forward. The clubs need to look at the bigger picture. THE OF always moan about lack of competition domestically but at the same time they crush anything that threatens there grip on the SPL. They need to realise that better competition at home will benefit everyone.

 

 

No disrespect ot Morton and Cowdenbeath is a home game against those two really worth having and going to simulate better competition?

 

Are SKY REALLY going to think great we have Morton and COwdenbeath in the league that more than make up for losing 2 OF fixtures well have to give the SPL more money for that

 

Looking at the bigger picture Sky will reduce money if they lose Two old firm fixtures AND we will have to split it amongst 20 teams so we will end up with less money less interest and a very boring league becuase for that 20 team league we need AT least 24 decent teams so no we have your brechins and alloa's in the mix from year 2 perhaps

 

That will kill football dead - we dont have a big enough pool in scotland we need at least 4 more teams than the league size otherwise it will get boring with no effective promotion and relegation

[K-9]

Imagine 3 games to go and AFC are 3rd 5pts behind rangers. would you prefer to be playing st mirren hamilton and St Johnstone in those last 3 games or hibs hearts and celtic? the split HELPS the OF in the last games of the season as all games are hard post split. with a 10 team league the last 3 games could be as below.

Do you reckon that Rangers would drop enough points in larger league if THEY were not playing at Hearts, Hibs and Celtic but instead playing Raith, Falkirk and Queen of the South?

[K-9]

The 20 teams that have the most points at the end of the season. Put them in a league of 20. Play each other home and away. Scrap the split.

 

The absolute TOP priority should be stimulating better competition within all the leagues. Fairer distribution of wealth would go a long way towards this but it never gets discussed because the OF will never release their grip on the money. The fact that it needs an 11-1 vote to change how the money is distributed means it will never EVER happen with the current voting rules . All the clubs are doing is looking at their accounts and adjusting the league to improve their bottom line. This is not the way forward. The clubs need to look at the bigger picture. THE OF always moan about lack of competition domestically but at the same time they crush anything that threatens there grip on the SPL. They need to realise that better competition at home will benefit everyone.

20 team league would have at least 5 meaningless fixtures every week in second half of the season. And Scotland is just not big enough for a 20 team league. Having likes of Cowdebeath, Brechin, Stirling Ablion etc in top league is just a joke idea.

[Red Dragon]

It's no really surprise that the top clubs have voted to keep their share of the pie and in doing so mainaining their relative strength with respect to the lower league clubs. What does surprise me is that there is consensus amongst the 12 current SPL clubs meaning at least 1 club with realistic relegation propects has voted for this. When i heard Wiggy was championing a 10 team league while we were sitting bottom (or there abouts) I almost shat a brick.

 

Two sides to the arguement:

 

Self interest - reduce the league, bigger slice of the pie for SPL clubs, maintain (even improve) your standards, let the rest squabble over the scraps.

the Greater Good - 16/18/20 team league, better competition, broader improvement, benefit to national team

 

Bamber makes a very good point regards little difference between any proposals with a split. If you are where you want to be, you'll play teams 4 times only getting less money to do so. I don't believe there is enough depth (or money) in Scotland, nor ever will be, to support an 18 or 20 team top flight. I'm more convinced by the benefits of a 10 team SPL than that of a league, which to be worthwhile, is too big for the coutnry.

 

Sort out everything below the SPL also and even the 10 team SPl can be made to bebnefit the country as a whole.

[donaldoni]

how?

 

do you not need to realise that spreading the wealth around the other teams would lead to better competition all round?

 

as an aside - what exactly do the old firm get, percentage wise and of what?

 

Split at the moment is as below.

 

League Position, Basic Fee, Supplmentary Fee, Total

1 4.0% 13.0% 17.0%

2 4.0% 11.0% 15.0%

3 4.0% 5.5% 9.5%

4 4.0% 4.5% 8.5%

5 4.0% 4.0% 8.0%

6 4.0% 3.5% 7.5%

7 4.0% 3.0% 7.0%

8 4.0% 2.5% 6.5%

9 4.0% 2.0% 6.0%

10 4.0% 1.5% 5.5%

11 4.0% 1.0% 5.0%

12 4.0% 0.5% 4.5%

48.0% 52.0% 100.0%

[Bamber]

Do you reckon that Rangers would drop enough points in larger league if THEY were not playing at Hearts, Hibs and Celtic but instead playing Raith, Falkirk and Queen of the South?

 

 

if we are talking a 10 team league then would you expect them there? yes it may be they that have the easier run in and not us - but at the moment every season post top six split the other 4 always have hard games and hence it is never going to be easy to mount a title challenge come the end of the season, with no split ( be that 10 team league play each other 4 times or an unworkable 18 + team league) there would at least be an opportunity every so often to mount a challenge in the last few games of the season.

 

Any sort of split benefits the OF

A 18+ league is unworkable as the strength in depth isnt there

[beer gut]

True but we would also lose less points against the OF because we would only play them twice each a season. Conversely we would also have a better chance picking up points against Raith, Falkirk etc etc . So there

[donaldoni]

Split at the moment is as below.

 

League Position, Basic Fee, Supplmentary Fee, Total

1 4.0% 13.0% 17.0%

2 4.0% 11.0% 15.0%

3 4.0% 5.5% 9.5%

4 4.0% 4.5% 8.5%

5 4.0% 4.0% 8.0%

6 4.0% 3.5% 7.5%

7 4.0% 3.0% 7.0%

8 4.0% 2.5% 6.5%

9 4.0% 2.0% 6.0%

10 4.0% 1.5% 5.5%

11 4.0% 1.0% 5.0%

12 4.0% 0.5% 4.5%

48.0% 52.0% 100.0%

 

Oh and basic TV income is 13 Million a year and main sponsorship deal is worth 2 Million a year.

[Red Dragon]

how?

 

do you not need to realise that spreading the wealth around the other teams would lead to better competition all round?

 

as an aside - what exactly do the old firm get, percentage wise and of what?

 

On the bold, no, I'm not convinced.

if comparing clubs of similar sizes with repsect to support and other income streams, I would agree since the top up from TV would be just that, a top up. ie Rather than the split below, if the weight at the top was removed and a linear distribution thotuhgout, this would hold true.

But, when compared to significantly smaller teams where the biggest income would be TV (ie clubs wioth attendances of 1k - 2k) which you'd get with a league big enough to get rid of the split, I fail to see how competition is encouraged.

 

Here we go..

 

1 - 4% + 13% = 17%

2 - 4% + 11% = 15%

3 - 4% + 5.5% = 9.5%

4 - 4% + 4.5% = 8.5%

5 - 4% + 4.0% = 8.0%

6 - 4% + 3.5% = 7.5%

7 - 4% + 3.0% = 7.0%

8 - 4% + 2.5% = 6.5%

9 - 4% + 2.0% = 6.0%

10 - 4% + 1.5% = 5.5%

11 - 4% + 1.0% = 5.0%

12 - 4% + 0.5% = 4.5%

 

The current pot is around

[donaldoni]

I still think we need a much longer term view that actually plans to improve and develop the smaller teams to allow us to have an exciting product. A top division smaller than 18 just isn't really a healthy long term solution.

 

If money is spread more equally and clubs are forced to spend it in effective ways rather than blow it on sh*t players than we can improve the scottish game.

 

Any forward thinking organisation would at least in principle aim for this and have a road map to get from where we are now to where we want to be over say 10 years. This might mean having a 10 team league with a limited life span to allow teams there to shift more focus to developing younger teams and and spend less on wages of poor players while feeding more money down to smaller clubs who can demonstrate they are spending it on an effective youth system

 

Ultimately we need to improve all the teams that are worth keeping and cut free of the dross thats been in Div 3 for 20 years and has no aim to do anything in the game.

[beer gut]

Split at the moment is as below.

 

League Position, Basic Fee, Supplmentary Fee, Total

1 4.0% 13.0% 17.0%

2 4.0% 11.0% 15.0%

3 4.0% 5.5% 9.5%

4 4.0% 4.5% 8.5%

5 4.0% 4.0% 8.0%

6 4.0% 3.5% 7.5%

7 4.0% 3.0% 7.0%

8 4.0% 2.5% 6.5%

9 4.0% 2.0% 6.0%

10 4.0% 1.5% 5.5%

11 4.0% 1.0% 5.0%

12 4.0% 0.5% 4.5%

48.0% 52.0% 100.0%

 

2% difference between 1st and 2nd. Then 5.5% difference between 2nd and 3rd.

 

They also get the lions share of the TV cash because nearly Every game shown is the OF against AN Other.

 

They also get to keep all their home gate receipts.

 

Its no wonder our game is in the state its in. The whole system is geared towards giving the OF as much as possible and to hell with the rest.

[Red Dragon]

I still think we need a much longer term view that actually plans to improve and develop the smaller teams to allow us to have an exciting product. A top division smaller than 18 just isn't really a healthy long term solution.

 

If money is spread more equally and clubs are forced to spend it in effective ways rather than blow it on sh*t players than we can improve the scottish game.

 

Any forward thinking organisation would at least in principle aim for this and have a road map to get from where we are now to where we want to be over say 10 years. This might mean having a 10 team league with a limited life span to allow teams there to shift more focus to developing younger teams and and spend less on wages of poor players while feeding more money down to smaller clubs who can demonstrate they are spending it on an effective youth system

 

Ultimately we need to improve all the teams that are worth keeping and cut free of the dross thats been in Div 3 for 20 years and has no aim to do anything in the game.

 

Your vision is honourable and it's hard to disagree with what you say but the country is just too small to support a 18 team top flight imo.