Question For Clydeside_Sheep

[Ke1t]

This isn't a trick or a trap, I just want your opinion as a rabid Catholic.

 

Is this coin based on the Pantocrator or not, in your opinion.

 

 

 

[LeDandy]

That looks like a kinda cross Jesus/Frankenstein's monster , which would actually go a long way to explaining the resurrection .

[Ohjimmyjimmy]

He created pantos?

[Poodler]

He created pantos?

Oh no he didn't...

[The Boofon]

This isn't a trick or a trap, I just want your opinion as a rabid Catholic.

 

Is this coin based on the Pantocrator or not, in your opinion.

 

 

 

Did you find this?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

This isn't a trick or a trap

Perish the thought that I would suspect such a thing!

Is this coin based on the Pantocrator or not, in your opinion.

Honest answer is that I dont know. At the very least, it is reminiscent of the Pantocrator image, even if not a great copy.

 

You could certainly make an argument the coin is based on it.

 

But then there are differences - you cant see the 3rd (top) arm of the cross behind His head, nor if He is holding the New Testament as per the image you mention. But maybe this is down to wear of the image or coin.

 

His other (right) hand looks to be correct, though noticeably worn or damaged.

 

Do you know whats on the other side, is it a Byzantine Emperor? (presume its a Byzantine coin?)

 

Maybe if the Emperor was an iconoclast, (some were), they have deliberately used a similar but not exact representation for the coin?

 

I hope my rambling / speculation is of some help to you

 

Edit - I have some cool Byzantine Icons with this kind of art, one from a Basillica in Florida, the other from a Cathedral in Budapest. I have not put them up in our new home as yet, the wife and I are both looking forward to that particular fight

[Ke1t]

I'm currently having a discussion with some lad who firmly believes (or is lying about his belief to save face) that this coin is a copy of the Turin Shroud.

 

When I saw it I pointed out that it's clearly (to my mind, anyway) a Christ Pantocator. It has the crossbeam of the cross (the upright is lost off the edge/amongst the lettering), the right hand raised in benediction, and the left hand holding the book.

 

He insists its based on the Shroud because that supports his belief that the Shroud predates Byzantium.

 

It is a Byzantine coin, the emperor in question being Justinian II. That would make the coin early 8th century, predating the 'rediscovery' of the Shroud by about 5 centuries... the implication being the Shroud isn't a fake, because here we have 'proof' that coins based on the shroud were being minted in the Eastern Empire long before carbon dating suggests the Shroud was forged.

 

I figured this would be of interest to you, though I wanted to hear your opinion on the likelyhood that this is simply based on the Christ Pantocrator, rather than some attempt at committing the Shroud to coinage.

[Scrumpy]

Definitely 'iconic' but not convinced it's Christ. Certainly nothing to do with the shroud. Probably a saint.

[boboisared]

I thought it was Frankenstein in fancy dress.

[The Oxford Don]

Definitely Byzantine, so the lad wittering about the Shroud can get tae.

 

That said, the Shroud is certainly an interesting artefact... whatever else it might be (or might be believed to be), at the very least it is almost certainly the world's oldest photograph..

[shooftahmooftah]

If you study the coin closely. He has 2 ear plugs in his ears to shut out all the lies that come out of the catholic church. The catholic church needs saving and to stop worshiping a saviour still on the cross Jesus is no longer on the cross but a risen saviour to those who want to believe. For the rest keep on partying and see what happens.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I'm currently having a discussion with some lad who firmly believes (or is lying about his belief to save face) that this coin is a copy of the Turin Shroud.

 

When I saw it I pointed out that it's clearly (to my mind, anyway) a Christ Pantocator. It has the crossbeam of the cross (the upright is lost off the edge/amongst the lettering), the right hand raised in benediction, and the left hand holding the book.

 

He insists its based on the Shroud because that supports his belief that the Shroud predates Byzantium.

 

It is a Byzantine coin, the emperor in question being Justinian II. That would make the coin early 8th century, predating the 'rediscovery' of the Shroud by about 5 centuries... the implication being the Shroud isn't a fake, because here we have 'proof' that coins based on the shroud were being minted in the Eastern Empire long before carbon dating suggests the Shroud was forged.

 

I figured this would be of interest to you, though I wanted to hear your opinion on the likelyhood that this is simply based on the Christ Pantocrator, rather than some attempt at committing the Shroud to coinage.

 

(BTW I am no expert on this, I got these links below from googling about)

 

Apparently the shroud and pantocrator are extremely similar. This link claims that, placing one over the other, they align perfectly:

 

The similarities between the Pantocrator icon and the image on the Shroud of Turin are startling. It is too significant to be coincidental. The location of facial features including eyes, nose and mouth are astounding. When a transparency of the Shroud face is placed over a photograph of the icon, they align perfectly. The hair on the left side (our right when looking at the pictures) falls to the shoulder and curls outward while the hair on the other side of the face is shorter. The eyes are very large. The face is gaunt and the nose is especially thin and long. The neck also is particularly long. There is a clear gap in the beard below below the lower lip.

 

http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/History/Greek-Byzantine/Pre-944AD/pantocrator.html

 

Much Byzantine art / icons, (not just the pantocrator), is reminiscent of the shroud. it could be that one influences the other. You would suspect that art would be more likely to copy the shroud, than vica versa, even if the shroud is an invention - otherwise, why the uniformity in the art (?) - but we can only speculate.

 

However, if the other side of the coin in question is Emperor Justinian II, then it seems the image wont be the Pantocrator - this link below states Justinian was an Iconoclast. It also gives an example of another one of his coins, with a different image again:

 

The emperor Justinian II (669-711 AD) was an iconoclast. That is, he disallowed the use of icons in liturgy and forbade their veneration. This explains his usage of a different representation of Christ from the Pantocrator.

 

http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~latendre/suaire/monnaie.html

 

I dont really understand Iconoclasm, I dont understand how its wrong to use one image, but its OK to use a close copy of it (!?!).

 

I think you are right though, I think this is chiefly a coin minted in typical Byzantine style but - due to Justinians personal sensibilities - a different representation of Christ than the Pantocrator was used in his case.

 

The coin shown (in the link) from the later Constantine VII period does have a pantocrator, and it looks much more like the shroud than does Justinians efforts.

 

I dont think this necessarily means the other guy is wrong to suggest the coins bear the image of the shroud but its really up to him to prove that!

[Clydeside_Sheep]

If you study the coin closely. He has 2 ear plugs in his ears to shut out all the lies that come out of the catholic church. The catholic church needs saving and to stop worshiping a saviour still on the cross Jesus is no longer on the cross but a risen saviour to those who want to believe. For the rest keep on partying and see what happens.

 

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness"

 

St Paul,

First Epistle to the Corinthians (1:23)

 

The Catholic Chruch preaches Christ crucified today - just as in the time of St Paul.

 

The Catholic Church (for all the faults of its members) is that created by Christ himself. Anything else is demonstrably man made, dating from ~1,500 years after Christ.

[boboisared]

Do folk actually believe in the Shroud of Turin?

 

EDIT: As in believe it was that Jesus blokes death cover?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Do folk actually believe in the Shroud of Turin?

 

EDIT: As in believe it was that Jesus blokes death cover?

 

Some people.

 

You can produce all manner of people / references both for and against its authenticity.

 

For the Church, the importance of the item in the modern day is as a devotional item, something that put us in mind of Jesus Christ - and this worth is in fact unaffected, be the item genuine or false.

[daytripping]

CS,

 

Do all creatures go to heaven or just humans?

 

My dog wants to know, he had a near death experience the other day, says he saw a light.

[looksgoodinred]

they go to the rainbow bridge.

 

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge.
There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.
There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.
The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

Author unknown...

[daytripping]

Thanks LGIR.

 

I wonder who picks up the poops at Rainbow Bridge.

[boboisared]

 

Some people.

 

You can produce all manner of people / references both for and against its authenticity.

 

For the Church, the importance of the item in the modern day is as a devotional item, something that put us in mind of Jesus Christ - and this worth is in fact unaffected, be the item genuine or false.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[shooftahmooftah]

Clydesdale you spelt the Cayholic church wrong its church not chrutch but maybe it could be chrutch regarding the Vatican cardinals and the rest of you know what I mean. Sorry misspelt catholic. Your church may preach and does preach Christ crucified today. That's the problem you still think he hangs on the cross. He came down from the cross and rose on the third day, read the real BIBLE. Do you know what the word BIBLE means and the rest of your flock.

Its Believers Instructions Before Leaving Earth [ for believers ]

Read it The Book Of Revelations is particularly interesting.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

CS,

 

Do all creatures go to heaven or just humans?

 

My dog wants to know, he had a near death experience the other day, says he saw a light.

 

Id like to think Dugs go to Heaven

 

Pondering the differences between humans and animals, in this regard, is actually quite interesting.

 

See the section called "Animals and Heaven" near the bottom of this link below.

 

The question rests on two more questions: are animal souls subsistent (do they exist in themselves and not in another), and, if not, could God restore them after death?

 

The answer given to the first question depends on whether one follows Plato or Aristotle. St. Thomas Aquinas chose Aristotle.

 

http://www.fisheaters.com/animals.html

[shooftahmooftah]

Dear Day Tripper

 

There is no poop in heaven or any other poops only those and I am including our dogs that got rid of all the bad shit they encountered on Planet Earth. Before they enter heaven. They stopped watching SKY sports, STV sports, and all the other garbage spouted off in the media news etc etc etc. In other words they gave up all the shit of the day. That's why there will be no POOP in heaven. Great eh you can walk your dog and cat for ever without worrying about POOP. Did that help.

[fine-n-dandy]

 

Id like to think Dugs go to Heaven

 

Pondering the differences between humans and animals, in this regard, is actually quite interesting.

 

See the section called "Animals and Heaven" near the bottom of this link below.

 

The question rests on two more questions: are animal souls subsistent (do they exist in themselves and not in another), and, if not, could God restore them after death?

 

The answer given to the first question depends on whether one follows Plato or Aristotle. St. Thomas Aquinas chose Aristotle.

 

http://www.fisheaters.com/animals.html

Does a dead fetus just remain a fetus in heaven?

 

Bit shit that

[Clydeside_Sheep]

He came down from the cross and rose on the third day, read the real BIBLE. Do you know what the word BIBLE means and the rest of your flock.

 

 

The Bible is a Catholic Book, which was created by the Catholic Church (compiling the Jewish Torah with the New Testament written by the Catholic Church).

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Does a dead fetus just remain a fetus in heaven?

 

Bit shit that

 

What you call a feuts is in fact a human being in the early stages of his/her life.

 

I agree its shit that some deny their humanity and think they can be destroyed on grounds that they are inconvenient.

 

That isnt something i would like to have to account for.

[fine-n-dandy]

 

What you call a feuts is in fact a human being in the early stages of his/her life.

 

I agree its shit that some deny their humanity and think they can be destroyed on grounds that they are inconvenient.

 

That isnt something i would like to have to account for.

Not going into the abortion debate with a catholic, just asking what you think happens to a fetus in heaven. Does it just remain a fetus in heaven with all the rest of it's dead family members in heaven?

 

Nae much fun for either if this is the case

[shooftahmooftah]

Clyde the BIBLE was written by God Almighty. Not your catholic church. Do not add or take away from these scriptures or the wrath of God will befall upon you. Revelations. So now you are saying the BIBLE was written by the catholics. Woe betide you you've just added.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Not going into the abortion debate with a catholic

Fair doos, though its worth noting that - scientifically - there is no actual debate.

 

The notion of there being a debate is a created myth to give undeserved credibility to "pro-choice" positions.

just asking what you think happens to a fetus in heaven.

If I understand your Q correctly - I dont know and I dont think the Church has pronounced on the matter (I could be wrong).

 

In the case of such a tragedy, the main/immediate concern is more about the fact that the unborn child has not had the opportunity to be baptised, than it is about the stage of development of their physical body.

 

My weekend is just about to begin and so I am now duty bound to go and drink alcohol

 

(and I have probably used enough work-internet today also lol - dont have the net hooked up in the new house yet!)

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Clyde the BIBLE was written by God Almighty. Not your catholic church. Do not add or take away from these scriptures or the wrath of God will befall upon you. Revelations. So now you are saying the BIBLE was written by the catholics. Woe betide you you've just added.

The Bible was inspired by God, but it was written by men.

 

The New Testament was written by members of the early Catholic Church, and this same institution created the Bible when it compiled the New Testament with the Jewish Torah.

 

And its not my Catholic Church, its Jesus Christs

 

Now I must bid y'all farewell for the weekend, booze is a calling.........

[Robbie Winters]

Clydesider - I once visited the Vatican (your big hoose I suppose) and a lad outside of probable African origin was trying to sell me some holy relics. Did I miss a trick ?

He was bumbling on about them being from Judea or somewhere far away. They were in a wee box wrapped in red ribbon but he did not let me see inside but he did rattle it a wee bit and there was something in there, not sure worth the €20 he wanted though.

I heard there is a market for such tat. Might have been some Byzantine coins for all I know