Question For Clydeside_Sheep

[fatjim]

We should be able to abort people at any point in their life who believe in bronze age mythology. It would make the world a better place,

[Chewie37]

You would have sounded less of a knob end had your quip made any sense

I'll explain that it was in reply to your answer to 'Looksgoodinred's question, but I'll also apologise for resorting to name calling, I usually try not to resort to that when someone has views comepletely different to my own, unless it's face to face, sorry min

[Dusk( 2 Stars )Don]

Iis don a dusted my friend

[The Boofon]

We should be able to abort people at any point in their life who believe in bronze age mythology. It would make the world a better place,

 

 

 

Love it. The old favourite never fails to raise a smile when you post that.

 

[looksgoodinred]

Abortion itself is a threat to womens lives, it is by no means unheard of for a women to die (along with her unwanted child) thanks to abortion:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23401781

 

http://www.lifenews.com/2015/01/21/clinic-that-killed-woman-in-botched-abortion-left-her-on-the-table-with-her-legs-in-the-stirrups/

 

 

To die in labour is pretty rare regardless of the age.

 

The lifetime risk of maternal death, for a 15 yr old, in Paraguay is 1 in 290: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MMR.RISK

 

 

It isnt fair that the girl was raped and has had to endue this, not at all.

 

However, It is right that the baby was not "aborted" - because s/he is an innocent human being with a right to life. I can understand a desire for an abortion in such an instance, but when you think about it, all that really achieves is to create another victim (the innocent destroyed in his/her mothers womb). Thus compounding the situation.

 

I dont for one second suggest that its an easy thing for a women (much less a young girl) to do - to have to carry a baby for 9 months which was conceived when she was raped. Not for one second do I think that.

 

Its a hard nine months, versus a human life. Personally, I think that if a person knows they are doing the right thing - no matter how hard the circumstances - then that knowledge in itself is a tremendous support against the hardship.

 

Some people would react with utter horror at the mere suggestion a woman might choose to carry such a baby until s/he was born. They cant grasp why someone would choose to endure such horrible circumstances for the benefit of another, especially if there might have been some other, easier choice. Yet I think this is a sign of humanity becoming cynical. Traditionally (and until fairly recently) we have held those who make such hard choices in the highest esteem and considered them extremely noble.

 

Look at the phrase, from sinking ships, "women and children first" - where men would consciously choose death by drowning in order to give women and children a chance of survival via a lifeboat. Who would criticise those men, or suggest their sacrifice on behalf of their loved ones (or even strangers) was somehow incomprehensible / odd? Such selflessness is even more remarkable when you consider that men could easily take the lifeboats by force and leaving the weaker women and children to perish.

 

In 1912, A Catholic priest on the Titanic, Fr Thomas Byles, twice refused a place on a lifeboat, preferring to stay and minister to the condemned people who had no chance of a place - knowing full well he would drown along with them. Maybe a brave person could turn down a lifeboat once, but could they do it twice? (I would insist on having my own personal lifeboat, towing a spare incase the first one sunk!).

 

In 1941, in Auschwitz, there was an escape of prisoners and as a warning to others the Nazis announced that 10 men would deliberately be starved to death. When one of the condemned men cried out about his wife and children, fellow prisoner Saint Maximilian Kolbe - another priest - and volunteered to take his place and was indeed sent to the starvation bunker (he was eventually killed via by being injected by acid). The man whose life he had saved, Franciszek Gajowniczek -a stranger to Kolbe - died of natural causes, aged 93, in 1995.

 

Of course, anonymous persons of all backgrounds have committed selfless acts of love like this - and their names will never be known to us; but I like to think they get their reward in Heaven.

 

So you see humans have an amazing capacity to put others before themselves - even if it means a sh*tty outcome for themselves!

 

And so when you consider this, I admire the woman who can say - I will endure the difficult 9 months, for the sake of an innocent child.

(For one thing, at least it doesnt involve her own death, like Kolbe in Auschwitz, or the men on the Titanic).

 

No, I value both lives equally. There is no other way. We are on a slippery slope if we begin to rank the worth of peoples lives, in any context.

 

While it would be a good thing to be able to spare a woman in such a position her ordeal, it is not permissible to do evil that good may result.

 

 

 

An abortion wouldnt take away the physical and emotional scars the young girl bears as a result of her being raped.

 

Perversely, it may even add to them when - in future - when she reflected that an innocent life was destroyed on her account.

 

Life isnt all peaches and cream, alas - sometimes, to put another before ourselves is the right thing to do, no matter how hard or appalling it may seem. I think it is in cases like this where we see the true nature of humanity, selfless and noble.

 

(It is easy to think that we could not expect such character from a girl aged 10 - a child. But in 1902 Saint Maria Goretti was stabbed to death, aged 11, for refusing to submit to a would-be rapist, 20 year old Alessandro Serenelli. She preferred death - or at least the risk of it - than to submit to something that she knew was wrong).

 

thank you C_S for your considered response. i don't agree with much if any of it, but i do appreciate the time you took to respond to my query.

 

a couple of points:

 

- i don't think Life News (a pro-life organization and publication) can be considered wholly subjective in reporting events around this woman's death. that said, she did die. while having an abortion. is it not possible though that the reason the EMTs weren't able to reach her in time due to the elevator not functioning properly, is possibly due to the inadequate funding of abortion clinics? and if they were funded as other medical facilities are, you might have facilities that functioned properly?

 

- i agree with you that there are people that put others before themselves. for whatever reasons. not everyone believes they'll get a reward in heaven; some do it just because it's the right thing to do. and maybe an older person -- an actual woman -- might have chosen to do that. for her own reasons. and either have kept the child or given it up for adoption at birth. but i don't think you can ask a child to make that decision.

 

- you say the child, regardless of mental of physical suffering, would probably feel better knowing she hadn't made a decision to abort. if an adult makes that decision for her, i think the mental scarring would be much less. even if she grew up to believe it had been the wrong thing to do, she would be able to blame the adult, not herself. you remove her own guilt from the equation by making that decision for her. and when has it been appropriate for a ten year old to make choices about medical procedures on their own behalf? this decision should be made by the appropriate adult as would be done for any other medical procedures for someone her age.

 

- i've said before, i don't think i'd have an abortion, but i've luckily not been put in the position to confirm that. but my choice isn't someone else's. you call people "abortionists", but i think what many people are is "pro-choice". i don't want an abortion, but i'm not going to judge someone else for making another decision that they feel is right for them. how can you know what's right for someone else?

 

I may not be able to debate it logically or well enough, but everything in me as a parent and a woman argues against the humanity of forcing a ten-year-old to go through a pregnancy and birth, under any circumstance, but particularly as the victim of a rape.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

thank you C_S for your considered response. i don't agree with much if any of it, but i do appreciate the time you took to respond to my query.

Nae bother, always a pleasure to engage with one of the very worthwhile and pleasant posters!

 

 

- i don't think Life News (a pro-life organization and publication) can be considered wholly subjective in reporting events around this woman's death.

Anyone could say the same about any media source they disagree with (especially ones which dissent from the tone set by the mainstream media).

 

-

that said, she did die. while having an abortion. is it not possible though that the reason the EMTs weren't able to reach her in time due to the elevator not functioning properly, is possibly due to the inadequate funding of abortion clinics?

Id identify the unnecessary, risky, invasive surgery as the main culprit.

 

-

and if they were funded as other medical facilities are, you might have facilities that functioned properly?

Abortion isnt healthcare. Quite the opposite in fact, its about ending lives and usually on the most flimsy / dishonest of pretexts.

 

i agree with you that there are people that put others before themselves. for whatever reasons. not everyone believes they'll get a reward in heaven

Of course I agree - there are plenty of selfless atheists, who would put others before themselves too. People can be motivated by doing whats right, in and of itself.

 

and when has it been appropriate for a ten year old to make choices about medical procedures on their own behalf? this decision should be made by the appropriate adult as would be done for any other medical procedures for someone her age.

Ultimately the important bit is that the right decision is made, reagrdless of who makes it. If that happenes to be the state - so be it.

 

you call people "abortionists", but i think what many people are is "pro-choice".

But "pro-choice" is a sanitised term, to hide the nature of what is intended.

 

Its also fundamentlaly incorrect, as the person whose life is being ended (in brutal fashion) is being given no choice at all.

 

Having a choice is not intrinsically good, but life is intrinsically good. We should respect and defend life, especially in its most innocent and vulnerable form.

 

i don't want an abortion, but i'm not going to judge someone else for making another decision that they feel is right for them. how can you know what's right for someone else?

 

But we cant concentrate only on the choice / decision of the woman and ignore the ending of the vulnerable life (the result of the choice).

 

Killing an unborn child is a great evil and injustice - it doesnt become less so, because it may happen to be convenient for someone.

 

The proper choice a woman has is whether or not to have sex; if she doesnt want a baby, she should not have sex.

 

When a woman is pregnant, there are two lives involved - both absolutely precious, but none more important than the other. Just because one cant speak out and is dependent on the other, doesnt mean s/he is worth less.

 

I dont resent people making choices I disagree with, but I do resent people avoiding taking responsibility for their own actions (as is the case with the vast majority of abortions) and choosing to end a human life based only on their own convenience.

 

everything in me as a parent and a woman argues against the humanity of forcing a ten-year-old to go through a pregnancy and birth, under any circumstance, but particularly as the victim of a rape.

I agree its a horrible circumstance. But a life has been created, and so what are we to do? This is the position in which we find ourselves.

 

Life is either valuable or it is not, it cant only be valuable some of the time.

 

I guess its about the basic principles which underpin society - do you want a society which values life, or which does not?

 

We currently have a society which doesnt value life; as shown not only by the numbers of abortions which take place, but our eagerness to become invovled in armed conflicts and also the fact that the elderly and disabled increasingly appear to be on a shoogley peg.

 

Fortunately, these kinds of very extreme cases (as with the 10 yr old) are very rare; abortion could be mostly or wholly eradicated if people had a realistic and responsible attitude to sex (most people regard it as a form of sport these days).

 

The vast majority of abortions take place because what was just meant to be meaningless sex has in fact created a new life. So, an imagined right to a cheap thrill (sometimes between two drunken strangers) is worth more than a human life.

 

How can anyone defend this reality?

 

Having respect for life, and taking responsiblity for the results of our own actions. These are the alternatives to abortion and both are bullet-and-bomb proof good principles, which is why I am so confident in my arguments. It just isnt tenable to argue that either of these 2 things is bad or mistaken.

 

Yes, sometimes an extreme/rare/sad case like the 10 yr old comes up - but ultimately we should make law / form principles based on norms, not exceptions.

 

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I'll explain that it was in reply to your answer to 'Looksgoodinred's question, but I'll also apologise for resorting to name calling, I usually try not to resort to that when someone has views comepletely different to my own, unless it's face to face, sorry min

 

No problem mate - and I apologise to you, for my snarky response.

 

(I had been annoyed by that other eejit telling me to "fuck off" and so you didnt catch me at the best time haha)

 

Lets have a group hug now

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

 

 

Love it. The old favourite never fails to raise a smile when you post that.

 

 

Meh, dont reward him for the regurgitated ramblings of a washed up comedian!

[Poodler]

If you feel life is so valuable why are you so negative towards the gays, lowering their sense of self worth and value?

[Quagmire]

 

The proper choice a woman has is whether or not to have sex; if she doesnt want a baby, she should not have sex.

 

 

I'm not going to lie, I know one or two girls that don't strictly abide to this rule.

[Henry]

Does your wife want to have a baby Clydeside min?

[looksgoodinred]

my question would be once you've got six or seven children, and you don't want more, what will you do?

[Nelly]

my question would be once you've got six or seven children, and you don't want more, what will you do?

 

He can do whatever the hell he wants, as long as he confesses and asks forgiveness for his sins there's still a place in heaven for him.

[Redforever86]

He could just fuck her in the arse.

[The Boofon]

He could just fuck her in the arse.

 

 

That's what the choir boys are for.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Does your wife want to have a baby Clydeside min?

I certainly hope so, shes about 5 months pregnant. A bit late for any dissent / 2nd thoughts

[Henry]

Has she wanted to have a baby for the entirety of the time you've been having sex with her?

 

Or have you only been with her for 5 months?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

my question would be once you've got six or seven children, and you don't want more, what will you do?

Women can control their fertility in a completely natural fashion, they do not actually require to ingest chemicals or use crude barrier methods to do so.

 

The Billings Ovulation Method (BOM) - fully endorsed by the World Health Organisation as effective and reliable - is equally as effective as the pill, and more effective than condoms or diaphragms etc.

 

Whats more it doesnt have any side effects, as the various artificial contraceptives do, nor does it cost anything.

 

BOM is prominent in China, where there is an 1 child limit on family size - so it obviously reliable.

 

Artificial methods are popular in the west because contraception has become a money-making business and due to wide-spread sexual irresponsibility there is a need to guard against STD etc, which are not a threat at all when sexual intercourse takes place responsibly. (Also, BOM requires a woman to be "on the ball" as regards what her body is doing, so in comparison to this its likely seen by some as being easier simply to pop a pill.)

 

When you think of it, the modern secular narrative that - throughout human history until the 1960s - women could not control their bodies, and were no more than helpless baby machines, is pretty absurd isnt it?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

He can do whatever the hell he wants, as long as he confesses and asks forgiveness for his sins there's still a place in heaven for him.

Indeed Nelly, and for you too

 

Forgiveness is a wonderful thing.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

If you feel life is so valuable why are you so negative towards the gays, lowering their sense of self worth and value?

Ive never set out to lower anyone sense of worth or value. This is the "gay victim" narrative, which is a false narrative.

 

We cant hide the truth on account that some people dont like it, or they claim that it hurts their feelings. The truth is intrinsically good.

[The Boofon]

Ive never set out to lower anyone sense of worth or value. This is the "gay victim" narrative, which is a false narrative.

 

We cant hide the truth on account that some people dont like it, or they claim that it hurts their feelings. The truth is intrinsically good.

 

Priests abuse children.

 

Truth or fiction?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Priests abuse children.

 

Truth or fiction?

Yes, homosexual predators in the priesthood abused minors (mostly teen boys).

 

I would much prefer that such a shameful truth did not exist, but it does - and so we have to accept it.

 

An excellent example.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Btw 2 replies since I divulged my news and no congrats for my budding wean yet - miserable bastards!

[The Boofon]

I certainly hope so, shes about 5 months pregnant. A bit late for any dissent / 2nd thoughts

 

 

Well done.

 

That one time not splattering it all over her tits and stomach has done the trick.

 

You'll be enjoying firing it right in her fud now for the next wee while with no fear of pregnancy. Enjoy.

[looksgoodinred]

Women can control their fertility in a completely natural fashion, they do not actually require to ingest chemicals or use crude barrier methods to do so.

 

The Billings Ovulation Method (BOM) - fully endorsed by the World Health Organisation as effective and reliable - is equally as effective as the pill, and more effective than condoms or diaphragms etc.

 

Whats more it doesnt have any side effects, as the various artificial contraceptives do, nor does it cost anything.

 

BOM is prominent in China, where there is an 1 child limit on family size - so it obviously reliable.

 

Artificial methods are popular in the west because contraception has become a money-making business and due to wide-spread sexual irresponsibility there is a need to guard against STD etc, which are not a threat at all when sexual intercourse takes place responsibly. (Also, BOM requires a woman to be "on the ball" as regards what her body is doing, so in comparison to this its likely seen by some as being easier simply to pop a pill.)

 

When you think of it, the modern secular narrative that - throughout human history until the 1960s - women could not control their bodies, and were no more than helpless baby machines, is pretty absurd isnt it?

 

you and I are never going to see eye to eye on any of this, but i'm a stubborn woman. so i'll keep at it (hopefully not in what's seen as a disrespectful tone, since that's not my intention).

 

i don't disagree that women -- SOME women -- can succeed using a natural method of some sort. but this requires the utmost attention to detail, and following the suggested system exactly. less than perfect, and you're quite likely to become a parent.

 

so here's two scenarios:

 

- what happens when you've determined you have enough children and definitely don't want more, relying on your wife who is less than reliable, to ensure this doesn't happen? you'll just put up with becoming a father again and again because she can't or won't track the information properly?

 

- what happens to the good Catholic woman who is doing everything right using the BOM, and has an inconsiderate/drunk husband who is determined to have sex on a day that will likely bring on a pregnancy?

[The Boofon]

Yes, homosexual predators in the priesthood abused minors (mostly teen boys).

 

I would much prefer that such a shameful truth did not exist, but it does - and so we have to accept it.

 

An excellent example.

 

They fiddle with girls as well unless I'm very much mistaken.

 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/catholic-priest-ran-cultlike-charlie-brown-group-to-sexually-abuse-young-girls-royal-commission-hears/story-fni0cx4q-1226778813498

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Well done.

Thank you (better late than never lol).

 

It was a relief to be able to live up to my prior boasting about the potency of my semen.

 

That one time not splattering it all over her tits and stomach has done the trick.

Oh no, thats banned as well. If you are gonna waste the good stuff, you'd be as well firing it up some blokes arse

 

You'll be enjoying firing it right in her fud now for the next wee while with no fear of pregnancy. Enjoy.

Alas, with all the discomfort of pregnancy and what-have-you, I think amore is the last thing on her mind.

[looksgoodinred]

and congratulations on impending parenthood, C-S. it's a wonderful thing!

[Clydeside_Sheep]

They fiddle with girls as well unless I'm very much mistaken.

That was some size of URL!

 

By far the main problem was predatory bufters, as the john jay report and others show.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

and congratulations on impending parenthood, C-S. it's a wonderful thing!

 

 

 

Thank you!

 

I have a niece and nephew both approx 1 yr old, and I can see how much joy they bring to their parents as they change from being babies into "little people" so I am certainly looking forward to it.

 

I am mildly concerned about the impact on my sleep however, being someone who does enjoy a bit of shut-eye!