Logan Racially Abused ?

[robbojunior]

I didn't mean in a derogetary way. The words Tonev is alleged to have said (get your hands off of me you black cunt) is bang out of order and 100% racist. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

 

I meant there's nothing wrong with using someone's skin colour to describe them physically. If you wanted to point out the only black man in a group with the rest made up of white people then you're obviously going to try and find the easiest way to describe him, which is saying he's black. It would be stupid to describe him by what he's wearing/doing/drinking/eating as was suggested earlier.

I agree with your statement that what tonev said is bang out of order but I disagree that it is 100% racist.

Once again, if he'd said to Rooney for example get your hands off me you ginger cunt. What's the difference here? The guy could very well be a racist cunt but sayin those words alone does not make it so.

[chaos_defrost]

I agree with your statement that what tonev said is bang out of order but I disagree that it is 100% racist.

Once again, if he'd said to Rooney for example get your hands off me you ginger cunt. What's the difference here? The guy could very well be a racist cunt but sayin those words alone does not make it so.

 

It's racist because he's using the word in a derogatory way. Why do you think he uses the word 'black' in this instance??

 

If he called Rooney a ginger cunt then it'd be derogatory towards gingers.

 

 

[V for Vendetta]

 

I didn't mean in a derogetary way. The words Tonev is alleged to have said (get your hands off of me you black cunt) is bang out of order and 100% racist. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

 

I meant there's nothing wrong with using someone's skin colour to describe them physically. If you wanted to point out the only black man in a group with the rest made up of white people then you're obviously going to try and find the easiest way to describe him, which is saying he's black. It would be stupid to describe him by what he's wearing/doing/drinking/eating as was suggested earlier.

 

In theory, yes. And often this can won't cause offence.

 

That sort of thing depends on context and tone used I think, and some people will take offence where others won't.

 

If I worked in an office with a black colleague and someone came into the office asking where this chap was I might say "he's on floor 2 next to accounting, can't miss him he's a big black guy". Probably not going to be taken as too offenisive by most people.

 

If I said "he's the black cunt upstairs" thats a hugely different obviously.

 

There's not exactly a set of rules to follow, people have to use their own sense of what seems right to them. But if you struggle to grasp what might offend others its usually best to err with caution. Unless of course you don't actually give a fuck, in which case best of luck to you but its not an attitude I'd take myself.

[V for Vendetta]

 

It's racist because he's using the word in a derogatory way. Why do you think he uses the word 'black' in this instance??

 

If he called Rooney a ginger cunt then it'd be derogatory towards gingers.

 

 

 

Yes it would be derogatory to gingers.

 

BUT ginger people aren't an ethnic group of any sort and they there isn't the history of prejudice against gingers as there is against black people. So for that reason its entirely different.

[robbojunior]

It's racist because he's using the word in a derogatory way. Why do you think he uses the word 'black' in this instance??

 

If he called Rooney a ginger cunt then it'd be derogatory towards gingers.

 

If he said get your hands off me you cunt it would still be derogatory. it's not 'necessarily' the use of the word black or ginger that makes it derogatory. You have to be certain that the use of those words are intended to be derogatory rather than just descriptive to label someone a racist.

I mean anyone with half a brain should know better than to even take the chance of calling someone a black cunt given the point v for vendetta makes about the extensive history of prejudice and persecution of black people but he is definitely a racist man? That's a very strong label to put on someone. And one which will take a long time to go away. Has anyone on here ever said something similar? Do they consider themselves a racist?

He's a fucking thick cunt I could say this with more certainty than he is a racist.

[robbojunior]

Years ago I was playing football and a guy i was marking kicked the ball away just as I was about to pick it up to take a thow in. I thought that was fucking cheeky of him so I said what are you doing you fucking monkey. He was black. As soon as I said it I felt mortified that I might be accused of having said something racist but it was nothing of the sort. He was being a cheeky bastard. I would have said it regardless of who I was talking to in these circumstances.

 

How would anyone know what my intentions were apart from me?

[JuniorsWailing]

As far as what is racist and what is not goes it isn't how it was intended that is crucial, it is how it was perceived by the person hearing it.

 

That also does not have to be the person that it was aimed at, it can be anyone who hears it.

 

I would suggest that the language used here is racist wether or not Tonev intended it to be or not. His opinion in this is of no consequence.

[chaos_defrost]

If he said get your hands off me you cunt it would still be derogatory. it's not 'necessarily' the use of the word black or ginger that makes it derogatory. You have to be certain that the use of those words are intended to be derogatory rather than just descriptive to label someone a racist.

I mean anyone with half a brain should know better than to even take the chance of calling someone a black cunt given the point v for vendetta makes about the extensive history of prejudice and persecution of black people but he is definitely a racist man? That's a very strong label to put on someone. And one which will take a long time to go away. Has anyone on here ever said something similar? Do they consider themselves a racist?

He's a fucking thick cunt I could say this with more certainty than he is a racist.

 

I'm not saying he's definitely a racist but he certainly acted in a racist manner imo and it's offensive what he said. If he wasn't meaning to be racist it was a very stupid thing to say! I think Juniors Wailing sums it up perfectly.

[baconman]

There is no doubt what he said was Racist. What is disappointing is that Celtic tried to get him off by challenging the SFAs decision and threatening to take them to the court of sports arbitration. Apparently Celtics lawyer tried to use the excuse that Logan had misheard what tonev said because of wind noise in the stadium..................desperate or what!!! SFA evidence was primarily down to Logan articulating clearly and consistently what he said. They also admitted to using evidence from other witnesses and used TV evidence. The fact Tonev was not consistent and seemed reluctant with his evidence eventhough he was offered a translator should have been enough for Celtic to back down, take it on the chin and accept he was guilty and be punished accordingly but no they couldn't. It drags the rest of scottish fitba down trying to defend the indefensible. This is stuff from the dark ages.............which in some ways is hardly surprising from a team who's fan base is solely on what flavour of Christianity you follow which is pathetic in itself in this day and age.

[RAZOR]

I agree with your statement that what tonev said is bang out of order but I disagree that it is 100% racist.

Once again, if he'd said to Rooney for example get your hands off me you ginger cunt. What's the difference here? The guy could very well be a racist cunt but sayin those words alone does not make it so.

Ginger isn't a 'race'

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Particularly on tonev the key point to me is that he took it upon himself to call him the name in English. This tells me three things. One he's very stupid. 2, it was designed that Logan would both hear and understand ergo 3, he's a racist.

 

To the point in hand though, I know what you mean. The black bit is an identifier, not a slur. To continue the ginger theme Neil Lennon is a ginger cunt each and every time he comes within earshot of me (at least when the kids aren't there). For the record I have no issue with gingers. To take this to extremes though I have long held this view about sectarianism and why a zero tolerance approach makes it very difficult to actually address. Each and every one involved at CFC is automatically a Fenian cunt. Likewise when the cheeks look the other way it's orange this and William that. It's not sectarianism for the vast majority of them, it's just a mob-led, drink fuelled identification.

[JuniorsWailing]

Used in this context the black bit IS a slur.

 

If Logan saw it as racist then that's all that matters. No one else's opinion counts. That is just the way it is and you can argue it as much as you want but it won't change it to something that wasn't racist.

[robbojunior]

Used in this context the black bit IS a slur.

 

If Logan saw it as racist then that's all that matters. No one else's opinion counts. That is just the way it is and you can argue it as much as you want but it won't change it to something that wasn't racist.

You're very probably correct that it was fully intended as a slur and he's a racist, but I think you're on dangerous ground if you base your decision on whether someone is a racist simply by whether the victim thinks it's racist or not.

[Tommy]

You're very probably correct that it was fully intended as a slur and he's a racist, but I think you're on dangerous ground if you base your decision on whether someone is a racist simply by whether the victim thinks it's racist or not.

I think you are fortunate not to have been battered senseless for calling a black player a monkey..

I have no idea if you are a racist or not but it was a stupid thing to say and I'd imagine you'd end

up in court nowadays for saying that.

[JuniorsWailing]

That is how the law is applied.

 

There clearly has to be an element of racist language involved, as there was here, but it doesn't matter if the person saying didn't mean to, or was joking, or what other excuse they try and use if they said it and it was perceived that way then the offence is complete.

 

Criminal courts still need corroboration but civil matters, as this would have been, depend on the balance of probabilities.

[robbojunior]

I think you are fortunate not to have been battered senseless for calling a black player a monkey..

I have no idea if you are a racist or not but it was a stupid thing to say and I'd imagine you'd end

up in court nowadays for saying that.

I agree it was an incredibly stupid thing to say and I was no doubt lucky not to have suffered in some way as a result but I am absolutely not a racist and the word was out of my mouth before I could consider the consequences as it was intended to describe the actions of the person and had absolutely fuck all to do with the colour of their skin.

[Tommy]

I agree it was an incredibly stupid thing to say and I was no doubt lucky not to have suffered in some way as a result but I am absolutely not a racist and the word was out of my mouth before I could consider the consequences as it was intended to describe the actions of the person and had absolutely fuck all to do with the colour of their skin.

I'm not doubting your stupidity :-)

[robbojunior]

That is how the law is applied.

 

There clearly has to be an element of racist language involved, as there was here, but it doesn't matter if the person saying didn't mean to, or was joking, or what other excuse they try and use if they said it and it was perceived that way then the offence is complete.

 

Criminal courts still need corroboration but civil matters, as this would have been, depend on the balance of probabilities.

Yep I get that and I agree. I'm not disputing the charge or the punishment handed out to tonev. He deserved it. maybe It seems like an irrelevancy but I think there's a difference between finding someone guilty of using racist language and finding someone guilty of being a racist. One is much easier to prove than the other. He definitely used racist language and hell he may well be a racist, but my point is, he may just be thick as fuck. Or have made a very very poor choice rather than being inherently a racist.

 

To be honest there should probably be much more punishments for abuse of all kinds in football. Some of the language used in matches I've played in and aggression shown to referees and opponents is disgraceful but it's seldom punished. So people continue to do it.

[robbojunior]

I'm not doubting your stupidity :-)

Haha glad to hear it.

[JuniorsWailing]

There can't be many of us who can hand on heart say that they haven't used racist language at some point in their lives.

 

Does that make you a racist, well in the eyes of some it probably does. I personally think that a person's actions are more important as anyone can say something in the heat of the moment.

 

These days there is an element who will pick up on every action and scream about it on social media while the rest of us pass comment and then move on.

[tup]

I'm often racist but in reality I dinna mind ethnic minorities.

 

I just give them abuse in private for a laugh with my pals.

[daytripping]

I've not followed this thread but have to say a 7 game ban is harsh, you could head butt someone and only get a 2 game suspension. Couple of games provided he apologised should have sufficed.

[ollie1903]

I've not followed this thread but have to say a 7 game ban is harsh, you could head butt someone and only get a 2 game suspension. Couple of games provided he apologised should have sufficed.

To apologise would be an admission of guilt. The fact there was a hearing and an appeal suggests that was never going to happen

[muttonhumper]

I'm often racist but in reality I dinna mind ethnic minorities.

I dinna think there's onything wrang wi' Stra'berries.

 

I think abody shoud hae een.

 

 

Edit

For the lily livered.

[Tommy]

I dinna think there's onything wrang wi' Stra'berries.

 

I think abody shoud hae een.

 

Edit

For the lily livered.

Ye Lilly livered radge min :-)

[muttonhumper]

Ye Lilly livered radge min :-)

 

I ken.

 

[alscotoz]

Yep I get that and I agree. I'm not disputing the charge or the punishment handed out to tonev. He deserved it. maybe It seems like an irrelevancy but I think there's a difference between finding someone guilty of using racist language and finding someone guilty of being a racist. One is much easier to prove than the other. He definitely used racist language and hell he may well be a racist, but my point is, he may just be thick as fuck. Or have made a very very poor choice rather than being inherently a racist.

 

To be honest there should probably be much more punishments for abuse of all kinds in football. Some of the language used in matches I've played in and aggression shown to referees and opponents is disgraceful but it's seldom punished. So people continue to do it.

 

 

racists usually are thick as fuck.

[Pudgie]

 

 

racists usually are thick as fuck.

Nae as thick as darkies though!

[robbojunior]

 

 

racists usually are thick as fuck.

 

absolutely but not all thick as fuck folk are racists

[fine-n-dandy]

I've got an awful habit of calling folk an Ape or Baboon if they are being a twat. Up until now it's been 100% white people. That shit will probably land me in hot water one day and I won't even mean it how it's being perceived.

This post will redeem me at the disciplinary hearing.

Maybe it will but only if you remove the last line.

 

Although given that I have now quoted you, that would be pointless now.