Scottish Football Restructuring

[Pudgie]

Heaps of threads going about but for the whole, I think we need;

 

One governing body

Regan oot

Doncaster oot

Ogilvie oot

Bigger Premier League (or can we nae make it the 1st division again?)

Fairer communal fund split

 

 

Any more?

[vanderark14]

IMO the whole lots needs to be under one governing body. The SFA but with different people running it is what we need.

 

The TV money or sponsor money should not be based on league position at all. This is a sport so we should all have an equal chance...........no matter what size of support you carry.

 

A larger top league and less leagues altogether. Playoffs in all leagues for promotion and relegation and a pyramid system.

 

if the above means less TV money then so be it. Right now this country's national game needs to start from scratch and we must all start thinking of the game as a whole. this is what impressed me with the 10 clubs voting No yesterday. Apparently in the meeting they showed solidarity and actually listened to what each other had to say.

[V for Vendetta]

You missed:

 

- pyramid structure

- democratic voting systems within the governing body

- short winter break

- early season start

- all televised games at a sensible and consistent timeslot.

- proper play offs and decent number of promotion spots between all the divisions

[fatshaft]

Regan oot - no brainer

Doncaster oot - no brainer

Ogilvie oot - no brainer

 

[bigger Premier League (or can we nae make it the 1st division again?)

Fairer communal fund split] I'll take this together. I don't think the top flight - let's call it Division 1, and stop all this "premier League" shite that we started and the guffs copied - should be any bigger, at least not yet.

 

What I do think is that the top league should have a totally even revenue split from TV. Any moaners can simply look to their own endeavours if they want more cash, go out yourselves and get more people through the gate. The reward for winning, should be winning.

 

I would also be pumping a bigger percentage down to the second tier, and even dribbling small parts to the third.

 

People running the game should NOT be "football people", they should come in with no baggage from previous club ties. Of course everyone will be a fan of one or other club, but this Weegie old boys club has to stop.

[Pudgie]

You missed:

 

- pyramid structure

- democratic voting systems within the governing body

- short winter break

- early season start

- all televised games at a sensible and consistent timeslot.

- proper play offs and decent number of promotion spots between all the divisions

Christ! I can't believe I missed them. Just pointed them out in a discussion at work.

 

Regan oot - no brainer

Doncaster oot - no brainer

Ogilvie oot - no brainer

 

[bigger Premier League (or can we nae make it the 1st division again?)

Fairer communal fund split] I'll take this together. I don't think the top flight - let's call it Division 1, and stop all this "premier League" shite that we started and the guffs copied - should be any bigger, at least not yet.

 

What I do think is that the top league should have a totally even revenue split from TV. Any moaners can simply look to their own endeavours if they want more cash, go out yourselves and get more people through the gate. The reward for winning, should be winning.

 

I would also be pumping a bigger percentage down to the second tier, and even dribbling small parts to the third.

 

People running the game should NOT be "football people", they should come in with no baggage from previous club ties. Of course everyone will be a fan of one or other club, but this Weegie old boys club has to stop.

 

Great ideas! Especially the second in bold. All in all, the revenue from scottish football needs split (equally or no) between ALL teams. I can't fail to see how this is beyond rational thinking. Every team gets a wee boost and this will make the game more competetive. We couldn't have all the relegation/promotion excitement without the teams below/above so they deserve their cut inna.

[V for Vendetta]

Regan oot - no brainer

Doncaster oot - no brainer

Ogilvie oot - no brainer

 

[bigger Premier League (or can we nae make it the 1st division again?)

Fairer communal fund split] I'll take this together. I don't think the top flight - let's call it Division 1, and stop all this "premier League" shite that we started and the guffs copied - should be any bigger, at least not yet.

 

What I do think is that the top league should have a totally even revenue split from TV. Any moaners can simply look to their own endeavours if they want more cash, go out yourselves and get more people through the gate. The reward for winning, should be winning.

 

I would also be pumping a bigger percentage down to the second tier, and even dribbling small parts to the third.

 

People running the game should NOT be "football people", they should come in with no baggage from previous club ties. Of course everyone will be a fan of one or other club, but this Weegie old boys club has to stop.

 

Personally I think we can afford to make the divisions bigger straight away but I know a lot of people agree with you FS and think we need to keep it at 12.

 

One compromise might be to create a "Road Map" for the leagues which cleary sets out the aim to get from where we are now (12 clubs) to where we want to be (18 or 20 clubs). Now this could be a 10 year plan and might simply mean for the first 4 years that more money is pumped down to the second tier clubs to stabilise and improve them in preparation for expanding the top league.

There could even be a system of providding "grants" to tier 2 clubs to allow them to improve facilities and youth development. So we help the small clubs improve their grounds, training facilities, squad quality and youth programs in preparation for that expansion.

Year 5 or 6 could see the top division them move from 12 to 16 teams and the process continues, supporting the teams below and helping them strengthen.

Year 10 sees expansion to 18 or 20 or whatever the stated aim at the start was.

 

We could also do ourselves a massive favour if when the TV money that comes in is handing out to the top clubs half of it is ring fenced for use to improve facilities and youth programs. Essentially forcing all the clubs to spend the money in a long term sustainable way rather than blow it on a shot at glory.

[DougieBell]

- 16 team league minimum, maybe even 18 - no fannying about with 14 teams when most (all?) of the current 1st division teams are more than capable of beating anyone in the SPL (even Celtic)

- pyramid structure so teams from the junior and non-league divisions can get promotion

- winding up of the SPL and those teams brought back under the SFL (it's actually pretty common for countries to have separate FA and league authorities, so I'm not overly fussed about only having one governing body - I also wouldn't oppose it)

- winter break

- summer football

- tell TV companies that WE decide when games are played, nae them

- no end-of-season split pish

- gate receipts evenly split - you need two teams for a game of football

 

Most of all, stop looking to England for ideas of how to do things, and look towards Scandinavia instead. Trying to copy the EPL is one of the main reasons we're in this mess in the first place.

 

Oh, and it goes without saying that Doncaster, Regan and Ogilvie all need to be kicked out. Get Levein to join them too, and make it a sacking offence for a manager of any team to play no strikers.

[weapon]

They need to implement these changes quickly, there is great focus rightly or wrongly on scottish fitba thw now, fans have been more vocal than ever in what they want and most clubs seem to agree, not taking into account the newco issue here.

 

The fans believe they are involved and driving real change and so change needs to be delivered now so that clubs can try and build on the attention that this is all having and entice fans back to grounds.

 

If this all gets pushed to the back burner yet again then we will loose the momentum that has been gained and in the end proposals will be watered down and some of the changes will no doubt be dropped!!

 

Enough talking has happened, lets get things feckin done!!

[stirlingsheep]

All organisations ran by the SFA, though without Regan and Ogilive in their current roles, new chief exec to be appointed.

Rules to be put in place that are consistent along all divisions for insolvency events such as liquidation and administration events, take charge of refereeing, discipline etc.

 

Top league of 18, play twice a year, 3 teams relegated

Second league of 24, play twice a year, 2 teams up automatically, one from a playoff between places 3-6, 4 relegation places

Pyramid System below this, including amateur and junior leagues

Scottish Cup expanded to include all Junior teams

League cup changed to a group and knockout format, which are regionally set, qualifying round and then 8 groups of 5, winners qualify for last 16, knockout till the end

 

All TV and sponsorship money divided equally among top 2 divisions. Home team keeps 90% of gate receipts for league games, 5% to the away team, 5% gets put towards youth development. All money for cup games is pooled and divided fairly among teams according to how they progressed in the tournament.

 

Means that when the Huns return to top league, we're likely to get at least 3 OF games, which will be marketable, two through the league, 1 though the league cup

[dazzy_deff]

All organisations ran by the SFA, though without Regan and Ogilive in their current roles, new chief exec to be appointed.

Rules to be put in place that are consistent along all divisions for insolvency events such as liquidation and administration events, take charge of refereeing, discipline etc.

 

Top league of 18, play twice a year, 3 teams relegated

Second league of 24, play twice a year, 2 teams up automatically, one from a playoff between places 3-6, 4 relegation places

Pyramid System below this, including amateur and junior leagues

Scottish Cup expanded to include all Junior teams

League cup changed to a group and knockout format, which are regionally set, qualifying round and then 8 groups of 5, winners qualify for last 16, knockout till the end

 

All TV and sponsorship money divided equally among top 2 divisions. Home team keeps 90% of gate receipts for league games, 5% to the away team, 5% gets put towards youth development. All money for cup games is pooled and divided fairly among teams according to how they progressed in the tournament.

 

Means that when the Huns return to top league, we're likely to get at least 3 OF games, which will be marketable, two through the league, 1 though the league cup

 

I like the sound of this.

[Bluto10]

1 governing body organisation.

equal rights for all senior national clubs

equal distribution of tv/advertising money etc.

2 national divisions.

- top division of 16

- 2nd div of 12

- 3 up and 3 down.

- no relegation from 2nd tier.

merge many clubs

force clubs to pull resources together (eg dundee clubs sharing a stadium)

 

then smaller initiatives to improves the match day for the punter like:

clubs rewarded if they fill their stadium (or penalised if they dinna)

football to be played on fri, sat and sun. no other days.

standing areas in grounds

[fatshaft]

Personally I think we can afford to make the divisions bigger straight away but I know a lot of people agree with you FS and think we need to keep it at 12.

I wonder if it's an age thing? Although I barely recall it being a very young loon, is it the ones who remember how bad a big league was who are aginst returning to it, while those who never witnessed it are in favour?

[RTYD]

Regan oot - no brainer - tick

Doncaster oot - no brainer - tick

Ogilvie oot - no brainer - tick

[bigger Premier League (or can we nae make it the 1st division again?) No more than 14. I remember 18, it was pish

Fairer communal fund split] I'll take this together. I don't think the top flight - let's call it Division 1, and stop all this "premier League" shite that we started and the guffs copied - should be any bigger, at least not yet. We need to ensure the Bigots get a fair share only.

[ericblack4boss]

i would go for a 16, 14, 12 formation of leagues, promotion relegation 2 up / 2down. the third bottom /3rd top play off in every division.

 

top league play twice (h+ A) ,

2nd div, h +a then split the top 6 bottom 8 play (h+a) again

3rd div , h+a , then split again then top6( they could play for The Calderwood Top 6 Cup) bottom 6 h +a again.

 

league cup back to sections, 8 groups of 4, top two in each group going through. no seeded sides straight draw.

 

top div posistion 4-7 play off for europa lge spot.

 

retain challenge cup, the winner should get automatic place in last 16 of Scottish cup.

 

3pts for win, 2pts for score draw, 1 pt no score draw.

 

in scottish cup, i would like to see the 16 top division sides if drawn against lower division side in 4th round have to play that tie away from home.

 

all gate money league and cup split 50/50.

 

winter break ,

 

bring back reserve league,

 

top div sides can farm out under 20 year old's to lowre lge clubs, before each season a feeder club and farmed club are drawn out of a hat. ( all 12 third div sides and 4 bottom div 2 clubs)

 

one organisation with board consisting of two reps from each div, one chair independent. and must also include one supporter rep.

[vanderark14]

Still pretty unsure about this.

 

Those who want a bigger league should be aware it'll increase the amount of meaningless games, albeit giving managers more chance to blood youth with less pressure.

 

Also sceptical people would come and watch AFC v Morton once when they wouldn't watch AFC v Hearts twice.

 

Too many people care too much about Man United and the like than Scottish Fitba as a whole, and I don't think that'll change overnight because we bring part time teams into the league.

 

as things stand right now, the vast majority of games are meaningless as none of the non OF teams have the chance to win anything. Level the playing field then increase the size of the league. Get SPL TV started and distribute all of that cash evenly between all teams. We must get rid of SKY as they are not interested in the development of the game here.

 

Playoffs for relegation and possibly even Euro slots. Not sure If I'd be on board myself with the Euro playoffs or not but 100% the relegation one. 2 teams down from a 16 larger league with 3rd bottom in a playoff could even go as far as 4th bottom too. Playoffs would take away the meaningless matches.

[Bluto10]

as things stand right now, the vast majority of games are meaningless as none of the non OF teams have the chance to win anything. Level the playing field then increase the size of the league. Get SPL TV started and distribute all of that cash evenly between all teams. We must get rid of SKY as they are not interested in the development of the game here.

 

Playoffs for relegation and possibly even Euro slots. Not sure If I'd be on board myself with the Euro playoffs or not but 100% the relegation one. 2 teams down from a 16 larger league with 3rd bottom in a playoff could even go as far as 4th bottom too. Playoffs would take away the meaningless matches.

 

i disagree.

 

sometimes fresh blood does wonders for the league. a play off stops that, or can hinder it at least.

 

also not a fan of the dutch style finish mid table but you get into the champions league. ridiculous really.

[vanderark14]

i disagree.

 

sometimes fresh blood does wonders for the league. a play off stops that, or can hinder it at least.

 

also not a fan of the dutch style finish mid table but you get into the champions league. ridiculous really.

 

you would get fresh blood with the two new entrants going up which is more than enough for a 16 team league. Having a playoff does not close the shop.

 

I've only had a quick scan but I'm quite sure mid table can't get in to the CL in Holland.

[Bluto10]

you would get fresh blood with the two new entrants going up which is more than enough for a 16 team league. Having a playoff does not close the shop.

 

I've only had a quick scan but I'm quite sure mid table can't get in to the CL in Holland.

 

 

true. but three would be better.

i guess i'm (wriongly) comparing it top england where the relegation battles can be the best bit about the league anmd often the promoted sides do well.

what about 3 down and a playoff for the 3rd promoted side?

 

[dont take everything so literally vda].

[vanderark14]

true. but three would be better.

i guess i'm (wriongly) comparing it top england where the relegation battles can be the best bit about the league anmd often the promoted sides do well.

what about 3 down and a playoff for the 3rd promoted side?

 

[dont take everything so literally vda].

 

in other words you admit to posting pish. :thumbs:

[E-P-K]

Finishing 9th in the Eredivisie gets you in a mini-play off for a Europa league place.

[Frank Butcher]

If you have a game when the season starts, you cant cancel to go play a friendly

 

No director owning shares in another club

 

Away fans pay the same in the corresponding fixture (if celtic charge us

[Lang Bar]

I wonder if it's an age thing? Although I barely recall it being a very young loon, is it the ones who remember how bad a big league was who are aginst returning to it, while those who never witnessed it are in favour?

 

Nae 100% with you on this one FS. Quite possibly what you recall is Aberdeen being pxsh, either side of the Turnbull era.

As a kid I remember the fitba being far more open and entertaining. Quite possibly because there wasn't the constant threat of relegation, if you lost a few games.

 

I've also had a look at the final tables going back from the last 18 team league in 74-75 to 60-61.

In those 15 seasons we had the OF split 7 times, with Dundee and Killie both being champions on top of that.

Season 64-65 was the most interesting. Kilmarnock won the league, followed by Hearts, Dunfermline, Hibs with Rangers 5th and Celtic 8th.

Oor best spell was 70-71 finishing 2nd, 2 points behind Celtic and again being 2nd the following year but 10 points behind celtic.

 

Indication of crowds, when you are chasing the title in an 18 team league.

Ayr Utd finished 14th but we played them on a Wednesday night at Pittodrie end of March and had a crowd of 18,000.

[V for Vendetta]

I wonder if it's an age thing? Although I barely recall it being a very young loon, is it the ones who remember how bad a big league was who are aginst returning to it, while those who never witnessed it are in favour?

 

Maybe age is a factor. I dunno.

 

Still pretty unsure about this.

 

Those who want a bigger league should be aware it'll increase the amount of meaningless games, albeit giving managers more chance to blood youth with less pressure.

 

Also sceptical people would come and watch AFC v Morton once when they wouldn't watch AFC v Hearts twice.

 

Too many people care too much about Man United and the like than Scottish Fitba as a whole, and I don't think that'll change overnight because we bring part time teams into the league.

 

I understand people fear meaningless games but if the league is well run with decent amount of relegation and lots of play off places at the end of the year to keep teams fighting then the meaningless games are reduced.

 

Its also got to be better for managers who want to develop teams and players to have a larger league.

 

Lastly I'd make the point that the SPL has been an complete failure and I'd prefer a league with some meaningless games rather than a completely meangingless league which is what it feels like we have.

 

Essentially all leagues have "meaningless" games. In fact half the bloody games Aberdeen play at the moment feel meaningless.

 

I'd go for 18 in the top league.

Bottom 2 down

3rd bottom into play off with 3 teams from league below.

2,3,4,5 go into play offs to settle the euro places.

 

I'd probably favour a much more even but not quite equal split of TV income.

Maybe with an equal split of all sponsorship income.

Rules to create more equal number of televised games for each team and rules around this issue where Rangers and Celtic never seem to lose out with home games televised.

[K-9]

 

I'd go for 18 in the top league.

Bottom 2 down

3rd bottom into play off with 3 teams from league below.

2,3,4,5 go into play offs to settle the euro places.

 

I'd probably favour a much more even but not quite equal split of TV income.

Maybe with an equal split of all sponsorship income.

Rules to create more equal number of televised games for each team and rules around this issue where Rangers and Celtic never seem to lose out with home games televised.

That would be 24 teams every season in or playing for Top league place and would need about 30 teams overall challenging. Would have likes of Elgin, Berwick and Peterhead on verge of top league which would be a joke.

 

Aberdeen v Cowdenbeath or Aberdeen v Stenhousmuir would have no interest to most fans and IMO to give these clubs big share of tv rights etc it would be utter joke. Who would want to pay to watch Berwick v Stranraer?

[vanderark14]

That would be 24 teams every season in or playing for Top league place and would need about 30 teams overall challenging. Would have likes of Elgin, Berwick and Peterhead on verge of top league which would be a joke.

 

Aberdeen v Cowdenbeath or Aberdeen v Stenhousmuir would have no interest to most fans and IMO to give these clubs big share of tv rights etc it would be utter joke. Who would want to pay to watch Berwick v Stranraer?

 

I'd bet that years ago people said that Wigan would be a joke in the top league but they deserve to be there regardless.

 

IMO your attitude towards the small clubs is the attitude that see's scottish football where it is right now

[vanderark14]

Exactly.

 

Whether we like it or not, TV revenue would drop without 4 Old Firm games. Not only that, we're then spreading what TV/prize money we would have more thinly between what, 18 teams?

 

Most folks moans are about the standard of football being shite and an uncompetitive league - if you want to improve the quality then how, pray tell, would having part-time teams in the league as a matter of course, improve things?

 

a league does not have to have money to be entertaining. Most games I watched in the Highland league this season were better than almost every SPL game I saw.

[vanderark14]

Well that's fine, who needs money when you've got a £15 million debt and a new stadium to build?

 

You're also confusing entertainment with quality.

 

our debt is our problem. We need to think as a whole instead of simply thinking about AFC. We can cut our cloth accordingly if we have less money coming in. who knows, if the league reconstruction works with a more even split of all funds then maybe there could be an increase in gates and TV money.

 

This league has to be competitive, if it is then we will see people go back to it.

 

Do you have any suggestions on league reconstruction bri?

[Coopy100]

the quality argument is a non starter in my eyes. We need to be looking towards youth anyway as our clubs are cutting budgets and the English teams budgets seem to be going up. A bigger league would help to promote youth as the fear of relegation would receede for many clubs.

[vanderark14]

It's utter nonsense to suggest money shouldn't come in to it, the problem is that it's been the be all and end all for too long and it's distributed wrongly.

 

One of the biggest moans folk have on here is the perceived lack of quality, which I believe drives folk to glory hunt in the EPL etc.

 

Avoiding diluting the quality while making it more competitive is the key therefore. That starts with a fairer split of prize money, and the notion that part time joiners and bakers who play for Berwick etc being in the league and the quality not diminishing significantly is utter pish.

 

I'm happy with the 12 team league given the lack of other sensible options, albeit play offs at the bottom of the table make sense.

I did not mean that money should be dismissed completely.

 

youre happy with a 12 team closed shop which currently fucks the rest of the leagues. Fair enough then.

 

Do you not think if part time clubs moved up they would earn more money and see them turn full time? therefore giving them the ability to attract a better quality player? Again the best example I can think of would be Wigan or closer to home - Caley Thistle

[tup]

For a football match to take place, all you need is 22 players, a stadium, and a crowd.

 

Scottish football and 'TV money' is a recent phenomenon. It's ruined our game, by anyone's measure.

 

Before that, our game managed fine.

 

Remember, we played the huns at Ibrox in 91 in a league decider and the radio coverage was the only coverage.

 

Nobody was screaming about that at the time.

 

Football and TV in Scotland has been a disaster.

 

I'd be glad to see no coverage whatsoever until our game, the actual game of football taking place on the pitch, the most important fucking aspect of any league, recovers sufficiently to make it worth televising.