Scottish Football Restructuring

[K-9]

our debt is our problem. We need to think as a whole instead of simply thinking about AFC. We can cut our cloth accordingly if we have less money coming in. who knows, if the league reconstruction works with a more even split of all funds then maybe there could be an increase in gates and TV money.

 

This league has to be competitive, if it is then we will see people go back to it.

 

Do you have any suggestions on league reconstruction bri?

Who would go to watch these games? How would this mean competitive league?

[K-9]

the quality argument is a non starter in my eyes. We need to be looking towards youth anyway as our clubs are cutting budgets and the English teams budgets seem to be going up. A bigger league would help to promote youth as the fear of relegation would receede for many clubs.

You mean accepting mid table somewhere as long as not relegated? Sounds familiar.

 

But if all clubs cutting budgets then all clubs will be able to blood youngsters regardless. But with less crowds and less cash coming in any semi decent youngsters and maybe even the average ones will be off down south at earliest opportunity to league two for more money.

[vanderark14]

Who would go to watch these games? How would this mean competitive league?

 

I said if it were competitive, I didn't say it would be. I'd say an even split of sponsorship and TV money to all top tier sides would make the league more competitive, adding more relegation places and playoff spots would make it more competitive.

[vanderark14]

You mean accepting mid table somewhere as long as not relegated? Sounds familiar.

 

But if all clubs cutting budgets then all clubs will be able to blood youngsters regardless. But with less crowds and less cash coming in any semi decent youngsters and maybe even the average ones will be off down south at earliest opportunity to league two for more money.

 

ok you don;t want the expanded league

 

whats your suggestion?

[K-9]

I did not mean that money should be dismissed completely.

 

youre happy with a 12 team closed shop which currently fucks the rest of the leagues. Fair enough then.

 

Do you not think if part time clubs moved up they would earn more money and see them turn full time? therefore giving them the ability to attract a better quality player? Again the best example I can think of would be Wigan or closer to home - Caley Thistle

Like they can now? And do as you point out.

[K-9]

looking at the teams in the SFL 1 & 2 right now. the part time sides would need to have one hell of a season to get past the rest. Not impossible but far from a guarantee

There would be 18 teams in top meague under this discussed proposal. 3 go down. Two up automatically and next four into play offs for last spot. Straight away that is 24 teams directly involved. Be plenty more involved in chase for play offs. Straight away quite a lot of part time teams going to be involved immediately.

[V for Vendetta]

An expanded league with fairer split of cash for me.

 

Also I think there might even be a case for the league to be clever and ring fence some of the cash given to teams for youth development/young players. Sort of a different approach to capping wage expenditure.

 

I don't really get the quality arguements being made tbh.

 

Also if we produce more kids and they leave to go down south or wherever thats fine. I've no problem with them leaving at all - we just need to keep producing more. In fact if all clubs are producing young players and cashing in on selling them on then all the better for our game.

[Foster14]

You mean accepting mid table somewhere as long as not relegated? Sounds familiar.

 

But if all clubs cutting budgets then all clubs will be able to blood youngsters regardless. But with less crowds and less cash coming in any semi decent youngsters and maybe even the average ones will be off down south at earliest opportunity to league two for more money.

 

They already do.

 

I used to be against a bigger league, but now I see it as one of the best ways forward. The time has come not to look at trying to compete with other leagues, it is trying to make it the most competitive league possible. 18 might be too big though, but certainly 16 should be looked at.

[V for Vendetta]

They already do.

 

I used to be against a bigger league, but now I see it as one of the best ways forward. The time has come not to look at trying to compete with other leagues, it is trying to make it the most competitive league possible. 18 might be too big though, but certainly 16 should be looked at.

 

16 is too small unfortunately just doesn't give enough games.

 

I'm pretty convinced 18 with 2,3,4,5 play off is the way to go personally. More games = more money. And I think we can afford a little play off for euro spots same as the dutch do.

[K-9]

ok you don;t want the expanded league

 

whats your suggestion?

Don't need to have own suggestion to have opinion that some other idea is completely unworkable.

 

But personally the first thing I would do and have said for years there needs to be rules in place that clubs cannot spend more money than they have.

 

At present there is no better alternative to the current 12 or the old 10 team leagues.

 

Bigger clubs will always make more money than smaller ones and have advantages over them but that will happen no matter what the league size is.

 

Making the football entertaining is the number one issue for me. Too many clubs go down line of negative football and that is turning fans away in droves. Even when no chance of relegation we were still going to places like St Mirren and sitting in trying not to concede. Shocking in my opinion and one of the main reasons our fans are turning their backs.

[K-9]

An expanded league with fairer split of cash for me.

 

Also I think there might even be a case for the league to be clever and ring fence some of the cash given to teams for youth development/young players. Sort of a different approach to capping wage expenditure.

 

I don't really get the quality arguements being made tbh.

 

Also if we produce more kids and they leave to go down south or wherever thats fine. I've no problem with them leaving at all - we just need to keep producing more. In fact if all clubs are producing young players and cashing in on selling them on then all the better for our game.

18 year olds would move on and we would get pennies in compensation. Certainly not enough to even cover what we spend on youth development at present.

[K-9]

Double post

[K-9]

 

Tup get the fucker on yer mafia list.

 

Source: this site.

Aye completely to do with Rangers ye divot!!

[Foster14]

Absolutely. Scottish football would die.

 

I'd say it has been dead for years.

[V for Vendetta]

Aye completely to do with Rangers ye divot!!

 

:-)

 

Calm down dear. It's just a bit of fun.

 

Had a slight feel to it so I waded in.

[V for Vendetta]

I'm gobsmacked by that, seriously.

 

Every single person on here will have complained about the standard of fare on offer both at Pittodrie and in the SPL generally at some point. The Rangers thing aside, it's probably the biggest contributing factor that keeps people away from Scottish football these days, yet folk seem to be willing to sacrafice that and put up with a team full of Mackies and Youngs so we can see Aberdeen (the team after all we're meant to be going to see) play Morton once rather than Hearts twice?

 

When threads like this come up, the majority dream up what they think would be an exciting league structure in and ideal world, but there seems to be less thought put into how it'd actually work in reality.

 

Anything that means the OF play less than 4 times a season means a smaller TV package, whether we like it or not. So in a 16 team league, not only is that money reduced but then it's spread out more thinly between more teams. It's all very well saying fuck the money, but we know fine well the modern day football fan threatens not to go back if their team plays shit, and within 10 minutes of this 16 team league kicking off folk would be on here ranting and raving about how we don't have players who can pass the ball and how this is the worst AFC team ever etc.

 

My solution.

 

Keep the existing 12 team league and split.

 

Even out the prize money so there isn't a huge drop between 2nd place prize money and 3rd place prize money.

 

Chuck in a play off between 2nd bottom and 2nd in the First Division.

 

Parachute payments for teams who get relegated, so there's less "fear" in blooding youth.

 

Pyramid system at the bottom of the SFL

 

Way I see it, i am thinking about the quality of scottish football not just the quality of games i happen to go to. So Morton still exist whether we play them or not. I'm not going to suggest we are too good to play smaller clubs.

 

Secondly whether less OF games means less money remains to be seen. Seems to me he SPL undersells itself and by focusing on just the OF games we miss a chance to sell the whole league.

 

Plus who is to say that 2 OF games a season might be worth as much or almost as much as 4. Having 4 a season has devalued that as well as other derbies in my opinion.

 

Some of the impact of reduced TV money can be softened by not giving 30% of it to the top 2 teams.

 

Don't forget I also included the concept of top play offs so there are extra games involving most likely at least one of the old firm at the end of season too. Again more money potential.

[V for Vendetta]

So eh no I don't see where the less quality argument really works.

[Foster14]

I'm gobsmacked by that, seriously.

 

Every single person on here will have complained about the standard of fare on offer both at Pittodrie and in the SPL generally at some point. The Rangers thing aside, it's probably the biggest contributing factor that keeps people away from Scottish football these days, yet folk seem to be willing to sacrafice that and put up with a team full of Mackies and Youngs so we can see Aberdeen (the team after all we're meant to be going to see) play Morton once rather than Hearts twice?

 

I think the bigger issue is the quality (entertainment) of the game, not the quality of the players. Defensive, tentative games with no-one willing to go for the jugular for the fear of losing.

 

A lot of people who have turned their backs on Aberdeen of late have gone to watch Highland League on a Saturday afternoon instead. The quality there is shit, but by in large you are going to see a game with two teams going for the win and goals a plenty.

 

The fear needs to be got rid off and the two things that contribute to that are:

 

- The size of the leagues

- The disparity of turnover/wealth/budgets between the teams in a league

- The drop when falling out of the SPL

 

Perhaps the focus on the latter two may be successful in making the game more entertaining and getting people back. I personally now think the first factor is one to seriously consider.

[V for Vendetta]

It also has to be said that more money doesn't make for better teams.

 

At some level all that happens is he same standard of player earns more money because all teams have more cash and compete for the same players.

 

It's also obvious that the quality is driven down by the small league when so many teams are in fear of the drop. I'md argue he reason we have seen the likes of mackie and young last so long is that they have some experience and clubs have favoured these sorts of players believing experience to be more important that young talent.

 

Mackie and young will have been muh better paid than many more skilful players in the SPL over the years do again I'm not getting the quality debate as I don't buy the assumption that cash = better players = better entertainment.

 

Ultimately the way to improve quality is to improve the quality I players we can produce by improving the quality of coaching, facilities and giving more opportunity to skilful players rather than strong steady cart horses.

[V for Vendetta]

18 year olds would move on and we would get pennies in compensation. Certainly not enough to even cover what we spend on youth development at present.

 

I disagree with this one as well to be honest. If we are producing good enough players to move on then some will go for compo and some for better money as well. Compo isn't too bad compared to the development cost for 1 players I'd think.

 

All clubs need to be producing them and to keep doing so. Other clubs manage to do this in leagues all over Europe.

[K-9]

:-)

 

Calm down dear. It's just a bit of fun.

 

Had a slight feel to it so I waded in.

Perfectly calm

[K-9]

I disagree with this one as well to be honest. If we are producing good enough players to move on then some will go for compo and some for better money as well. Compo isn't too bad compared to the development cost for 1 players I'd think.

 

All clubs need to be producing them and to keep doing so. Other clubs manage to do this in leagues all over Europe.

If less money in Scottish game the promising young players will leave earlier meaning next to no compensation received.

[Foster14]

If less money in Scottish game the promising young players will leave earlier meaning next to no compensation received.

 

So lets get Rangers straight back in the SPL if money is the be all and end all.

[V for Vendetta]

Perfectly calm

 

Pity other folk aren't then!

 

Chat forums can be both great banter and pointless boring arguing sometimes.

 

If I'm only contributing the latter I'd better take myself off again.

[V for Vendetta]

If less money in Scottish game the promising young players will leave earlier meaning next to no compensation received.

 

Just not convinced they would. In a league where youngsters are seen to flourish them move on to good deals I think we can convince them to stay and move at the right time.

 

Just an opinion of course.

[K-9]

So lets get Rangers straight back in the SPL if money is the be all and end all.

Yeah totally!!

[Foster14]

Yeah totally!!

 

Every argument you seem to put forward is about a definite reduction in cash and crowds.

 

Crowds - All research done on the matter has shown the majority to be in favour. On that basis, won't crowds go up? If games are more open and entertaining (less danger of relegation, more to play for, less familiarity with playing clubs 3-5 times a season), would you not rather go?

 

Cash - As a result of above, won't clubs make more from higher attendances? Will fairer distribution of lesser money not mean no difference to a lot of clubs? All chat of late (pre-Rangers episode) has been talking about fairer distribution of cash down the leagues. Doesn't that mean less to the SPL clubs anyway? If SPL clubs are confident of survival without a Rangers, won't the cash position not be all that different this coming season or two as it would be in a larger division with a Rangers back in it in 2-3 years?

 

EDIT: That is even without considering whether if cash is the be all and end all when it comes to quality. Clubs like Dundee United, Hibs and Hamilton have all developed young players of a decent quality who've moved on after a few seasons in their teams, with budgets/wages lesser than ours. Building a league with genuine competition and opportunity to develop will have players come and want to stay (especially when talking about youngsters). I think the current league setup is becoming so dead end just now that young players are wanting to move as soon as possible...

[Ke1t]

One governing body overseeing one league structure.

 

Governing body elected by ALL clubs, with equal (2?) representatives from each league making up said body.

 

Merger of SPL and SFL, obviously.

 

All TV money pooled and distributed exactly equally between all clubs of all divisions. No club gets a penny more in TV money than any other club. Suck it up.

 

A form of draft system created for the top division, either utilising the clubs in the lower leagues or schools.

 

Membership fees for all clubs, tiered depending on your division, and excluding the bottom division where membership fees are waived. This money pooled and distributed equally among bottom division clubs.

 

League suspension for repeated infringement of league code of ethics... so if a club has fans who, I don't know, say... riot in the streets, send bombs through the mail, or chant sectarian, racist, bigoted songs at matches... then a season's suspension from football is the result.

 

An INDEPENDENT means of determining punishment for repeat offenders.

[RTYD]

One governing body overseeing one league structure.

 

Governing body elected by ALL clubs, with equal (2?) representatives from each league making up said body.

 

Merger of SPL and SFL, obviously.

 

All TV money pooled and distributed exactly equally between all clubs of all divisions. No club gets a penny more in TV money than any other club. Suck it up.

 

A form of draft system created for the top division, either utilising the clubs in the lower leagues or schools.

 

Membership fees for all clubs, tiered depending on your division, and excluding the bottom division where membership fees are waived. This money pooled and distributed equally among bottom division clubs.

 

League suspension for repeated infringement of league code of ethics... so if a club has fans who, I don't know, say... riot in the streets, send bombs through the mail, or chant sectarian, racist, bigoted songs at matches... then a season's suspension from football is the result.

 

An INDEPENDENT means of determining punishment for repeat offenders.

 

AFC Chat members should do

[Willie Millers Moustache]

I'm gobsmacked by that, seriously.

 

Every single person on here will have complained about the standard of fare on offer both at Pittodrie and in the SPL generally at some point. The Rangers thing aside, it's probably the biggest contributing factor that keeps people away from Scottish football these days, yet folk seem to be willing to sacrafice that and put up with a team full of Mackies and Youngs so we can see Aberdeen (the team after all we're meant to be going to see) play Morton once rather than Hearts twice?

 

When threads like this come up, the majority dream up what they think would be an exciting league structure in and ideal world, but there seems to be less thought put into how it'd actually work in reality.

 

Anything that means the OF play less than 4 times a season means a smaller TV package, whether we like it or not. So in a 16 team league, not only is that money reduced but then it's spread out more thinly between more teams. It's all very well saying fuck the money, but we know fine well the modern day football fan threatens not to go back if their team plays shit, and within 10 minutes of this 16 team league kicking off folk would be on here ranting and raving about how we don't have players who can pass the ball and how this is the worst AFC team ever etc.

 

My solution.

 

Keep the existing 12 team league and split.

 

Even out the prize money so there isn't a huge drop between 2nd place prize money and 3rd place prize money.

 

Chuck in a play off between 2nd bottom and 2nd in the First Division.

 

Parachute payments for teams who get relegated, so there's less "fear" in blooding youth.

 

Pyramid system at the bottom of the SFL

 

Just what is this pyramid system that keeps on being mentioned? Is it the same as a pyramid scheme -

'a non-sustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.'(wiki)?

 

Sounds like just the sort of thing the SFA and the SPL would go for!