Scottish Independence Referendum 2

[gazelle83]

The UK government had the option to prevent this. If conditions were sought for Scotland then there'd be no referendum. I'm fairly certain both Scotland and little Britain will trade with minimal fuss. The basics are the same however - you wouldn't let your neighbour run you affairs, so why.....

[360]

 

I think we all know what Caledonia thinks. There's no point in him repeating himself so an inadequate stalking prick such as yourself can latch onto his posts, slag him off in some vain hope of gaining kudos.

 

Fuck off to some English club forum.

 

Do this football forum a favour and go back on "strike" you fat cunt.

[spamspamspam]

If we gained independence would it ever go back to the good old days of £30 for a score?

 

Is it nae 30 a half o now for yon cooncil shite?

[vanderark14]

You're like the hats version of Rod Stewart.

 

Plastic Scot with no vote

 

there's no vote ye twat

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Here's your pocket money Nicola, spend it wisely now.

Yes and remember, Nicola, your pocket money is £15 billion more than you would be able to raise yourself.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Top posting CS min; Always a shining beacon in the dense mists of politics

Thanks Bluto.

 

We can only do our best each day, as we strive to imitate your own outstanding contribution to the forum.

[Bluto10]

[Clydeside_Sheep]

someone moving to another country to experience a better life or better their career is allowed to voice an opinion. I chose to move for my career but that doesn't mean I will never move home as I am sure the same goes for SOTR. You can still love your country from anywhere in the world.

 

In saying that I agree that I shouldn't get a vote unless I were to move back but my opinion is just as valid. I stuck up for you and I still agree you are entitled to your opinion despite the flack you get but here you are talking out of your arse. Not you or any other cunt will stop me giving an opinion.

 

That post was a retort to SOTR, it wasnt directed at you. You are getting awfy sensitive in your auld age.

 

Of course people are entitled to an opinion.

 

I was only saying its very easy to throw caution to the wind and advocate big changes, when you do not stand to be affected by the changes personally.

[E-P-K]

Hopefully Gert wins in the Netherlands today to spice things up.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

The problem with basing your vote on the economic impact is, not a soul on the planet knows what the economic impact would be.

There are significant known issues affecting jobs and the economy, which we will have to address.

 

The indy movement just glosses over these.

 

We discussed them briefly before, your answers to my questions are in italics in the quotes:

 

1. How does it make sense to leave the UK, a union where we share kinship, language and history, in favour of an even bigger union where we share none of these things?

 

We can still share kinship language and history with them whilst being an independent nation. We don't necessarily have to join the EU if we become independent. The snp are saying they want to retain access to the free market like Norway for example.

That isnt the point, the point is that the UK is a close family which acts in the interests of all the family.

 

The EU isnt like this. Smaller / less rich nations are left to rot, just so long as Germany is alright.

 

As for EU membership - membership is the whole justification for the new vote.

 

2. What currency are we going to use in an independent Scotland? This is important as it affects our salaries / mortgages etc.

 

I agree this is important and particularly so for the snp given the last one. I would suggest a new Scottish currency but let's see what is proposed. The referendum is not tomorrow remember.

No, but its likely in 18-24 months. Strikes me as quite a short time to have to answer such a big question.

This was a big hole in the pitch last time, its a disgrace they are wanting another vote without even having begun to address this.

 

3. What public services will be cut to offset Scotland's £15 billion budget deficit? Would the EU even accept us with such a deficit, the size of which (I think) breaches their financial rules for member nations?

 

Again we may not as a nation wish to be part of the EU. The £15m deficit is scotlands 'share' of the uk deficit. How this is dealt with will be part of a negotiation. Again an important question but it's the independence movement's challenge to try and answer it. Not paying for HS2 will provide a good chunk.

Its £15 billion not million.

 

And this isn't our share of UK debts, its the gap between what Holyrood spends and what tax is raised in Scotland alone.

 

Our membership of the UK allows us to spend £15 billion more than we could spend as an independent nation. If that goes, we need to make up the difference in tax rises or service cuts.

 

4. Why doesn't the pro-indy movement want Scotland to have control over (eg) Scotland waters, with the associated employment and revenues? Why do they want the EU to control, and benefit from, this instead?

 

As above regarding eu membership

Being a member of the EU is the whole justification for the new vote.

 

 

5. How will we offset the significant loss of employment resulting from (eg) loss of Royal Navy contracts from the Clyde and Rosyth, loss of the Faslane naval base and various other British military installations in Scotland?

 

Speculation that navy contracts will be lost.

It isn't speculation, its fact. The RN doesn't build its warships abroad. This is a fact, we did it to death last time and I made spamx3 look a twerp on this point, because he wouldn't accept it.

 

Even if we got to finish the current frigate order, there would be no more. No English government is going to pass up jobs and votes to award work to a foreign Scotland = loss of jobs and skills from Scotland.

 

6. Is it really wise to cut political links with the largest markets for our exports?

 

Why do we have to cut political links with them? We can just negotiate with them as an independent nation. Trade between rUK and Scotland will not cease if we become independent.

We would have trade links, not political links. Trade links revolve around money only, political links take into account more.

 

7. Why haven't the SNP sought to clarify any of these questions, before calling a 2nd referendum?

 

They haven't called the referendum yet. Also they can't possibly know the answers to any of those questions because they can't predict the future. Much as the uk gov doesn't have a fucking clue what post brexit uk will be like.

They didn't have a scooby last time and they still don't.

 

It isn't about "predicting the future" its about having a strategy to deal with known issues which will have a significant affect on Scotland.

[Reed or deed]

Information overload.

[beer gut]

I don't understand how pro EU SNP supporters can use arguments to stay in the EU but ignore the very same arguments for staying in the UK? Can someone explain it to me?

 

May will not bow to Sturgeons demands. She will soon begin negotiations on a deal for the UK coming out of the EU. How can she do that if she isn't 100% sure what the UK will look like after brexit???

[vanderark14]

I don't understand how pro EU SNP supporters can use arguments to stay in the EU but ignore the very same arguments for staying in the UK? Can someone explain it to me?

 

May will not bow to Sturgeons demands. She will soon begin negotiations on a deal for the UK coming out of the EU. How can she do that if she isn't 100% sure what the UK will look like after brexit???

 

you make a good point but the same works in reverse. The UK is about to fuck off one of its biggest trading partners and re-negotiate everything............why couldn't Scotland do the same?

 

May was quite happy to negotiate by ignoring the devolved parliaments, she will negotiate based on the UK being together which is how I think it will remain anyway.

[Foster14]

I don't understand how pro EU SNP supporters can use arguments to stay in the EU but ignore the very same arguments for staying in the UK? Can someone explain it to me?

 

 

That is a two way thing. Plenty folk arguing for release from the EU to get power back, but then saying Scotland should remain part of the UK as it doesn't need to make it's own decisions.

 

Put it this way. Pre "Brexit", no-one was classing this as a UK independence debate. It was about getting some powers back which they had ceded to the EU (conscious decision on their part). Scottish referendum is about obtaining the right to have full autonomy, which would then allow us as a nation to make such decisions as whether of not we would want to join the EU, and whether that would involve relinquishing some of these powers.

 

I don't recall the EU at any point having full autonomy over the UK and then drip-feeding powers back to try and sate the appetite for a degree of self-autonomy. As far as I see it, this is being used as an opportunity by the Scottish government to give credence to the call for a second referendum, the real EU question would happen if a yes vote came in.

[robbojunior]

 

 

It isn't about "predicting the future" its about having a strategy to deal with known issues which will have a significant affect on Scotland.

 

Like the UK government strategy for Brexit?

 

The vote will be in 18 months / 2 years and independence in the event of a yes vote would be a further 2 years beyond that. Yes a strategy is required but the strategy cannot be known in fine detail at the outset. It will be devised, and evolve over a long period of negotiation and to suit the current state of affairs over the next 4 years. At least the SNP had put together an initial strategy last time, unlike the Conservatives who hadn't given a minute's thought to a leave vote in the EU referendum.

[beer gut]

 

That is a two way thing. Plenty folk arguing for release from the EU to get power back, but then saying Scotland should remain part of the UK as it doesn't need to make it's own decisions.

 

Put it this way. Pre "Brexit", no-one was classing this as a UK independence debate. It was about getting some powers back which they had ceded to the EU (conscious decision on their part). Scottish referendum is about obtaining the right to have full autonomy, which would then allow us as a nation to make such decisions as whether of not we would want to join the EU, and whether that would involve relinquishing some of these powers.

 

I don't recall the EU at any point having full autonomy over the UK and then drip-feeding powers back to try and sate the appetite for a degree of self-autonomy. As far as I see it, this is being used as an opportunity by the Scottish government to give credence to the call for a second referendum, the real EU question would happen if a yes vote came in.

 

The is no guarantee of Scotland remaining in the EU post indy ref so to me the EU issue should be parked because it's an argument that the SNP cannot win. Maybe if she admitted Scotland will be out of the EU and promise to hold another Referendum for Scotland joining the EU in the future she might start to win over SNP voters who also voted leave like myself.

 

Just because the SNP want to remain members of the EU doesn't mean it will actually happen.

[Bluto10]

I don't understand how pro EU SNP supporters can use arguments to stay in the EU but ignore the very same arguments for staying in the UK? Can someone explain it to me?

 

May will not bow to Sturgeons demands. She will soon begin negotiations on a deal for the UK coming out of the EU. How can she do that if she isn't 100% sure what the UK will look like after brexit???

Basically it's just folk exercising their right to be pissed off at successive govts failing to give them what they want.

 

I don't think anyone actually thinks life will be better as an indep country or out of the eu.

 

 

But it's a protest vote.

[Foster14]

 

The is no guarantee of Scotland remaining in the EU post indy ref so to me the EU issue should be parked because it's an argument that the SNP cannot win. Maybe if she admitted Scotland will be out of the EU and promise to hold another Referendum for Scotland joining the EU in the future she might start to win over SNP voters who also voted leave like myself.

 

Just because the SNP want to remain members of the EU doesn't mean it will actually happen.

 

Yes, SNP are using the 62% vote to basically say that we are being dragged out of a union that we want to remain part of.

 

How can she promise any of these things? There is no guarantee that she will be in a position of power in an independent Scotland? We will of course be out of the EU, because we will have been taken out as part of the UK before any independence has happened. All the SNP will do is say that they would intend to rejoin the EU in their plan, but that would surely form part of the first formation of a new government in Scotland. It doesn't really matter what is said though, the obvious inclination for anyone is that ultimately, as long as the EU would have us, we would end up back in. That goes off the back of the 62% vote. In reality, it would depend on the position Scotland found itself in 4-5 years time.

[Oregon Red]

Is this really even worth discussing..i think most of us should know by now were we stand on this topic.

When that happens a thread just degenerates into both sides spouting their propaganda but no one is persuaded either way.

BY the way..have no say but have always been 100% a believer that Scotland should be independent.. poor ,rich whatever .

[spamspamspam]

 

Yes, SNP are using the 62% vote to basically say that we are being dragged out of a union that we want to remain part of.

 

How can she promise any of these things? There is no guarantee that she will be in a position of power in an independent Scotland? We will of course be out of the EU, because we will have been taken out as part of the UK before any independence has happened. All the SNP will do is say that they would intend to rejoin the EU in their plan, but that would surely form part of the first formation of a new government in Scotland. It doesn't really matter what is said though, the obvious inclination for anyone is that ultimately, as long as the EU would have us, we would end up back in. That goes off the back of the 62% vote. In reality, it would depend on the position Scotland found itself in 4-5 years time.

 

 

Several in the bureaucracy of the EU have already said they'd find a way to allow Scotland to remain part of the EU if it voted to become independent. A holding area was mentioned, whatever the fuck that's meant to mean. The most recent noises are that we'd be put straight into the EEA and then we'd either have to go through the full EU application and acceptance process or there would be some EU jiggery-pokery done to get us in while bypassing the usual hoop jumping pish.

 

The only thing that is certain right now is that we all know fuck all about how anything will look in the next 5 years, in or out of the UK. We've no idea how the Brexit negotiations will or wont go. If there's another Scottish referendum we've no idea what we will be voting to be part of or not part of.

 

If they do go ahead with this next referendum right now the choice is simple, Scotland decides for Scotland or carry on allowing England to decide for Scotland.

[spamspamspam]

If there is another referendum I think the most interesting part of it will be how the Conservatives will try and argue that its best for the UK to leave a long union and its largest trading partner while saying that its not best for Scotland to leave a long union and largest trading partner.

 

The contradictions they'll be having to make during different speeches to different parts of the country will be fun to watch... if the media picks them up on them that is.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Its being reported that Sturgeon is abandoning the policy of EU membership for an indy Scotland.

 

Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum plans were rapidly unravelling tonight as it emerged she is to abandon the SNP’s policy of rejoining the EU immediately amid record Euroscepticism in Scotland.

Just a day after the Scottish First Minister demanded a second vote on independence, senior Nationalist sources told The Daily Telegraph that Ms Sturgeon would instead try to join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), whose members include Norway and Iceland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/

 

 

But just recently she claimed Scots were strongly pro-EU and this was the grounds for a 2nd referendum.

 

Also being reported that the SNP are backtracking on a desire for a referendum at all:

 

SNP offers to abandon independence referendum if Theresa May lets Scotland stay in the European single market

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-would-call-off-independence-referendum-if-theresa-may-let-scotland-stay-in-the-european-single-a7630426.html

 

The Uk will likely still have access to the single market, either as a brexit deal or by paying for access like other countries do, and so this seems like a get-out-clause dressed up as a demand.

 

Apparently, 4 new polls show most Scots against a new referendum and are pro-UK:

 

FOUR polls reveal most Scots want to stay in the UK and don't want another referendum

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4314372/Nicola-Sturgeon-abandons-plans-stay-EU.html

 

 

Lets see what comes out in the wash, but it looks like the wheels have come off this already.

 

EDIT| - this chopping and changing demonstrates how the SNP do everything on the hoof.

[Oregon Red]

Its being reported that Sturgeon is abandoning the policy of EU membership for an indy Scotland.

 

Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum plans were rapidly unravelling tonight as it emerged she is to abandon the SNP’s policy of rejoining the EU immediately amid record Euroscepticism in Scotland.

Just a day after the Scottish First Minister demanded a second vote on independence, senior Nationalist sources told The Daily Telegraph that Ms Sturgeon would instead try to join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), whose members include Norway and Iceland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/

 

 

But just recently she claimed Scots were strongly pro-EU and this was the grounds for a 2nd referendum.

 

Also being reported that the SNP are backtracking on a desire for a referendum at all:

 

SNP offers to abandon independence referendum if Theresa May lets Scotland stay in the European single market

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-would-call-off-independence-referendum-if-theresa-may-let-scotland-stay-in-the-european-single-a7630426.html

 

The Uk will likely still have access to the single market, either as a brexit deal or by paying for access like other countries do, and so this seems like a get-out-clause dressed up as a demand.

 

Apparently, 4 new polls show most Scots against a new referendum and are pro-UK:

 

FOUR polls reveal most Scots want to stay in the UK and don't want another referendum

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4314372/Nicola-Sturgeon-abandons-plans-stay-EU.html

 

 

Lets see what comes out in the wash, but it looks like the wheels have come off this already.

 

EDIT| - this chopping and changing demonstrates how the SNP do everything on the hoof.

Daily Mail..aye right!

[robbojunior]

Its being reported that Sturgeon is abandoning the policy of EU membership for an indy Scotland.

 

Nicola Sturgeon’s referendum plans were rapidly unravelling tonight as it emerged she is to abandon the SNP’s policy of rejoining the EU immediately amid record Euroscepticism in Scotland.

Just a day after the Scottish First Minister demanded a second vote on independence, senior Nationalist sources told The Daily Telegraph that Ms Sturgeon would instead try to join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), whose members include Norway and Iceland.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/

 

 

But just recently she claimed Scots were strongly pro-EU and this was the grounds for a 2nd referendum.

 

Also being reported that the SNP are backtracking on a desire for a referendum at all:

 

SNP offers to abandon independence referendum if Theresa May lets Scotland stay in the European single market

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-would-call-off-independence-referendum-if-theresa-may-let-scotland-stay-in-the-european-single-a7630426.html

 

The Uk will likely still have access to the single market, either as a brexit deal or by paying for access like other countries do, and so this seems like a get-out-clause dressed up as a demand.

 

Apparently, 4 new polls show most Scots against a new referendum and are pro-UK:

 

FOUR polls reveal most Scots want to stay in the UK and don't want another referendum

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4314372/Nicola-Sturgeon-abandons-plans-stay-EU.html

 

 

Lets see what comes out in the wash, but it looks like the wheels have come off this already.

 

EDIT| - this chopping and changing demonstrates how the SNP do everything on the hoof.

 

If you actually read Sturgeon's first announcement that she wanted another referendum she referred specifically to the single market. Only these papers seem to have imagined a U-turn.

 

Talking of chopping and changing and doing things on the hoof. How's the UK Government's NI rise for self employed looking?

[craegDAMH]

Also being reported that the SNP are backtracking on a desire for a referendum at all:

 

SNP offers to abandon independence referendum if Theresa May lets Scotland stay in the European single market

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/snp-would-call-off-independence-referendum-if-theresa-may-let-scotland-stay-in-the-european-single-a7630426.html

 

The Uk will likely still have access to the single market, either as a brexit deal or by paying for access like other countries do, and so this seems like a get-out-clause dressed up as a demand.

 

I got the impression from her speech that this was always her position. Don't think this is a backtrack at all.

[Bluto10]

Is this really even worth discussing..i think most of us should know by now were we stand on this topic.

When that happens a thread just degenerates into both sides spouting their propaganda but no one is persuaded either way.

BY the way..have no say but have always been 100% a believer that Scotland should be independent.. poor ,rich whatever .

You think it should indep; even if that meant the populace were poorer.

 

That's strange thinking IMO

[spamspamspam]

You think it should indep; even if that meant the populace were poorer.

 

That's strange thinking IMO

 

People voted for Bexit even though it will most likely make the country poorer.

 

If the UK is poorer after the brexit deal it can make changes to try and change things. If Scotland was worse off after a vote for independence it too can make changes to try and fix it.

[Oregon Red]

You think it should indep; even if that meant the populace were poorer.

 

That's strange thinking IMO

Why?

I think standing on your own two feet is preferable to being a lackey even if your a lackey with a golden collar.

[vanderark14]

You think it should indep; even if that meant the populace were poorer.

 

That's strange thinking IMO

 

See Spam and robbojuniors post above. We could be poorer or richer by staying part of the UK. Economy's go up or down.

 

This is not about the economy

[Bluto10]

Why?

I think standing on your own two feet is preferable to being a lackey even if your a lackey with a golden collar.

Take your chip off your shoulder.

I'm Scottish but certainly no lackey to any government.

 

And I don't view other Scots as lackeys either.