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Scottish Independence Referendum 2

Henry

By Henry,
in The Pub

Should Scotland be an independent country?  

273 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Scotland be an independent country?

    • Yes
      197
    • No
      76

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Clydeside_Sheep
Clydeside_Sheep

Well, good riddance to bad rubbish! A total disaster as a leader who not only failed to develop the case for independence one jot, but also proved to be kind of reverse-King Midas where everythin

Simply Red
Simply Red

Yir a fat hun spastic and no mistake

spamspamspam Enthusiast

spamspamspam

Posted
Posted

I havent read the growth report in full yet, but have had a decko at the website info. Seems full of the usual politico-waffle, dreams rather than facts:

 

"Scotland can....." - this is a hope not a fact.

 

"A Fairer Society" - what does that even mean? Who decides what is fair? If you asked 10 people, you would get 10 different answers. What is what I think is fair from what Nicola Sturgeon thinks is fair, how is that fair? "Fair" is not a measurable variable, like GDP is, for example.

 

One bold claim suggests that Scotland is as wealthy as France and Japan. Japans huge and world leading automotive and electronic industries immediately sprang to mind, versus Scotland's bloated public sector, full of Harry Clarkes.

 

And, as usual, its all about the SNP listing their current favourite countries (which change frequently, depending on their fortunes) and talking about how we "can" ape them. Why is it always about copying someone else?

 

The UK is a world-leading and absolutely brilliant country to be part of and we are all extremely fortunate and privileged that we are. Nationality is an accident of birth and we all hit the jackpot. Most people live in what Trump termed "shit holes".

 

I think folk should take a step back and ponder whether they fully appreciate the UK and think what it might be like to have less. Its very easy to get caught up in some petulant mood of "this is shit" and fail to appreciate what we have. Its human nature to take things for granted and not appreciate them.

 

 

Is a world leading what?

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beer gut Newbie

beer gut

Posted
Posted

A few folk in the Question time audience last night, and Brian Souter on the panel stating that they are not being represented by the SNP because they voted YES but also to leave the EU.

 

This is why if a referendum is held before all the brexit shit has been concluded the SNP will lose and they will lose heavily IMO. People that voted YES last time but also voted to leave the EU might decide its better to be part of the UK but out of the EU than to be "independent" within the EU.

 

The problem is the SNP doesn't give a fuck about these people, when you bring it up, and it happens on here too, you just get shouted down and called racist, hun, unionist or whatever.

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Foster14 Apprentice

Foster14

Posted
Posted

The problem is the SNP doesn't give a fuck about these people, when you bring it up, and it happens on here too, you just get shouted down and called racist, hun, unionist or whatever.

 

That is because they will always pick the option that has the majority. They need to have a plan for post independence and that involves being part of the EU as that is what the majority wanted (as shown in the referendum).

 

They'll see that as more of a selling point as may convince those that said no to independence to a yes (as they wish to remain part of the EU).

 

The amount of laws the EU controls over Scotland is significantly less than those that are controlled by Westminster. Not only that, but those that voted yes last time had a clear indication the plan was to remain part of the EU, so why that would change a previous yes vote to a no, I don't really understand.

 

The pro-independence movement has to give a roadmap for how they see us going from part of the UK to independence and with a clear support to remain part of the EU in the Brexit referendum it would be madness not to adopt that policy. Unless you are proposing that is left blank for people to guess what might happen and then we go down the route of yet another referendum on the EU for an independent Scotland.

 

The one part I'd agree with you on is that to hold a referendum before Brexit is finalised would be a bad idea. It was already clear with the results at the last election that it would not be accepted by voters.

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Jocky Balboa Proficient

Jocky Balboa

Posted
Posted

A few folk in the Question time audience last night, and Brian Souter on the panel stating that they are not being represented by the SNP because they voted YES but also to leave the EU.

 

This is why if a referendum is held before all the brexit shit has been concluded the SNP will lose and they will lose heavily IMO. People that voted YES last time but also voted to leave the EU might decide its better to be part of the UK but out of the EU than to be "independent" within the EU.

 

The problem is the SNP doesn't give a fuck about these people, when you bring it up, and it happens on here too, you just get shouted down and called racist, hun, unionist or whatever.

 

My wife and I are also YES/Leave (apparently the SNP's own internal research matched opinion polls like Ashcroft that suggested 35-40% of their voters voted Leave) and am dismayed at the behaviour of Krankie MacMerkel and her husband, who run the party in a manner that doesn't tolerate views deviating from the party line. This goes dead against the broad church appeal that the independence movement always prided itself on - and most importantly, what is needed if they are to win. The membership surge from 24000 to 130000+ meant that things could never stay the same, but the participatory democracy that could have been, has not been realised.

 

The problem is, she has little choice now but to call another referendum before 2021, as not only does she have a very clear mandate, but her opponents will see failure to do so, after all her posturing and grandstanding, as a sign of weakness - and they will exploit this 100%! Not only that, the grassroots independence support (many who are not natural SNP voters but who lent their vote to her on that 2016 manifesto promise) will see her as weak and full of shit and will punish her at the ballot box for her betrayal.

 

Personally, I think she'll try and wiggle out of it and kick it into the long grass, then attempt to hold on in 2021 and win another term as a minority government.

 

That said, I am still of the opinion that independence is the goal and that other issues/policies can be decided later. I'm just not convinced all the YES/Leave contingent will agree. The FM could put that to bed any time, by simply committing to an EU/EEA/EFTA referendum before the end of the 1st parliament after independence. I voted Leave and would do so again, but the UK government are clueless here and are sleepwalking us into an economic car crash.

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Redforever86 Grand Master

Redforever86

Posted
Posted

RF min, why are you pro Indy but anti brexit?

Put simply I feel the benefits of being in the single market and security of being part of a bigger block out weigh the few laws put in place by Brussels. Laws which we would be involved in setting if we had a seat at the table, we are currently denied that as England doesnt involve us.

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Ke1t Grand Master

Ke1t

Posted
Posted

True but the No campaign also ran their entire campaign on the premise that voting no was the only way for Scotland to stay in the EU. So no, deal with it is not a sensible argument.

 

Didn't the NO Campaign run on the premise that Scotland would actually be a POORER country if it kept all its oil revenue to itself, because Scotland actually receives more money than it contributes?

 

And people believed that.

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spamspamspam Enthusiast

spamspamspam

Posted
Posted

 

Didn't the NO Campaign run on the premise that Scotland would actually be a POORER country if it kept all its oil revenue to itself, because Scotland actually receives more money than it contributes?

 

And people believed that.

 

Aye, that and it was the only way to guarantee staying in the EU.

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Ke1t Grand Master

Ke1t

Posted
Posted

 

Aye, that and it was the only way to guarantee staying in the EU.

 

 

Then that's TWO bites at the cherry for the Scots, and they were too fucking stupid to catch on.

 

1. No oil-producing country is going to be poorer for taking control of its own resources. There are wars FOR resources for a reason, but I don't think a war was ever fought to give resources away.

 

2. Scotland's geographic location is CRITICAL to the Western defense. So the EU isn't going to say, Nah... yer nae joinin.

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spamspamspam Enthusiast

spamspamspam

Posted
Posted

 

 

Then that's TWO bites at the cherry for the Scots, and they were too fucking stupid to catch on.

 

1. No oil-producing country is going to be poorer for taking control of its own resources. There are wars FOR resources for a reason, but I don't think a war was ever fought to give resources away.

 

2. Scotland's geographic location is CRITICAL to the Western defense. So the EU isn't going to say, Nah... yer nae joinin.

 

 

Thats 3, we werent getting into NATO either according to Westminster.

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Ke1t Grand Master

Ke1t

Posted
Posted

 

 

Thats 3, we werent getting into NATO either according to Westminster.

 

Well, you can be part of a strategic plan but not part of the NATO alliance, but, yeah, I think Scottish NATO membership would be obligatory from a NATO point of view.

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mcdougall(4) Newbie

mcdougall(4)

Posted
Posted

 

 

Then that's TWO bites at the cherry for the Scots, and they were too fucking stupid to catch on.

 

1. No oil-producing country is going to be poorer for taking control of its own resources. There are wars FOR resources for a reason, but I don't think a war was ever fought to give resources away.

 

2. Scotland's geographic location is CRITICAL to the Western defense. So the EU isn't going to say, Nah... yer nae joinin.

Bit more research may be required here min

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caledonia Experienced

caledonia

Posted
Posted

Bit more research may be required here min

Hahahaha typical Tory do you think that the Tories would take £30 from the sick and disabled yet subsidise the whole of scotland

 

Wonder why the tories fight so hard to keep us maybe you can explain instead of mouthing off all the time

 

Green party member my arse

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caledonia Experienced

caledonia

Posted
Posted

Greenishy blue

Every single post he makes is either pro tory or snpbad

Nothing wrong with that if its what he believes but why hide behind the green party

 

maybe he has no backbone to tell the truth or maybe he is embarrassed to admitting he is a conservative

 

I challenge anyone to find a post mac4 has made that favoures the green party or does not have snpbad in it

 

He was rumbled early on jumping on every pro scot gov post with a basically Scotland is shite reply

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