Arsenal's Arrogance

[ZeroTolerance]

Arsenal miss Bergkamp, believe me. Vieira also, although they have a replacement in waiting in Fabregas. It'll be interesting to see how Van Persie comes on towards the en of the season when he returns from injury. He has amazing potential, and is starting to score the goals required.

 

The early 2000s are up for debate. I wouldn't say Man United set any sort of standard that was head and shoulders above the rest. It was an even tussle those first few years, just look at the way the league title shifted from club to club up until 04.

 

Man United are alright, they've still got the financial clout to buy players like Ronaldo and Rooney which is their main attribute as a club. The Fergie no brainers. The team around them, however, isn't all that amazing. Once Giggs, Scholes and Neville are gone, you'll be a two man team. Ferdinand is sadly lacking. Van Der Sar is ancient. Evra is out of his depth. Carrick, Park, Saha, Fletcher etc just aren't very good. I just don't see any success beyond this or at very most next season. You're too reliant on the leftovers from the class of 92 and a couple of big money signings. The former nearing the ends of their careers. Chelsea will reload and fire again next year, Arsenal will be a more solid unit having gained a lot of experience from this year and they'll adapt. They have a better squad than Man U in my opinion, if even a little on the light side. They have a lot of very good young players, and no really old ones barring Lehmann. A couple of signings, especially if Eto'o is one of them, and they'll be challenging again.

That's fairly deluded nonsense.

 

Van der sar may be about the same age as Lehmann but in Kuzsczak have a better replacement than Almunia. Both clubs will likely be in the market for a #1 keeper in the next 12 months though.

 

Evra has looked more confident as the season has worn on and has rightly kept Heinze - arguably the best LB in the world at one point - out of the team.

 

Carrick, Saha, Park and Fletcher are all decent players and all make a contribution to the squad.

 

Sure Giggs, Scholes and Neville don't have too many years left in them but you are deluded if you think that they either do not have the players coming through or will not have the resources to replace them

 

Arsenal do indeed have a good young team but they lack discipline, this season has shown how much they struggle without Henry on form.

 

As for making a "couple of signings" again United are more likely than Arsenal to have the clout to pick up a couple of star players whether that be Hargreaves, Torres or whoever.

[hebrewdon]

Personally, I like Arsenal, you need a bit of arrogance, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just don't like Chelsea really.

 

Me too

[Baggy89]

You could say, if that was the case, why have they won the league so many times? Doesn't say much for Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea et al if Ferguson is buying so many sh*t players, does it? And therefore, doesn't show Wenger up very well.

 

You could also say that for every Kolo Toure, there's been a Senderos... or a Cygan... or a Grimandi. Horses for courses, bad signings happen everywhere, and what happens next season or the next two seasons are all ifs buts and maybes. We'll never know until the time comes.

 

This is true, I think on the whole Fergie has made the "big" signings correctly, bar maybe Veron (possibly the biggest of them all). Couple that with the overall spending power he has had compared with (until recently) the rest of the prem, is probably the reason Man U have been so successful. The thing he hasn't managed to do is create the perception to outsiders of discovering a gem, as Wenger has. Folk forget that the likes of Henry and Veira were already at BIG clubs, when Wenger "found" them, he just gave them the chance to develop their talents in a first team situation, and let Henry play the position he was best at, and not play him as a left mid. However Fergie unlike Wenger has invested in young British talent, this maybe the reason why he doesn't have this perceived ability to find gems as most people in this country were aware of these gems abilities before he signed them??

Another point about Wenger is that most of his transfer success has been based on the ridiculously over-inflated fee Barcelona paid for Overmars and Petit.

Anyway as you say Horses for Courses, except for as Chunk says Chelsea, who seem to buy every single young player that shows the slightest glimmer of potential so no one else can have them.

[boboisared]

This is true, I think on the whole Fergie has made the "big" signings correctly, bar maybe Veron (possibly the biggest of them all). Couple that with the overall spending power he has had compared with (until recently) the rest of the prem, is probably the reason Man U have been so successful. The thing he hasn't managed to do is create the perception to outsiders of discovering a gem, as Wenger has. Folk forget that the likes of Henry and Veira were already at BIG clubs, when Wenger "found" them, he just gave them the chance to develop their talents in a first team situation, and let Henry play the position he was best at, and not play him as a left mid. However Fergie unlike Wenger has invested in young British talent, this maybe the reason why he doesn't have this perceived ability to find gems as most people in this country were aware of these gems abilities before he signed them??

Another point about Wenger is that most of his transfer success has been based on the ridiculously over-inflated fee Barcelona paid for Overmars and Petit.

Anyway as you say Horses for Courses, except for as Chunk says Chelsea, who seem to buy every single young player that shows the slightest glimmer of potential so no one else can have them.

Sounds a bit familiar, you know somewhere clsoe to home?

[SiMor]

That's fairly deluded nonsense.

 

Van der sar may be about the same age as Lehmann but in Kuzsczak have a better replacement than Almunia. Both clubs will likely be in the market for a #1 keeper in the next 12 months though.

 

Opinion without any basis in reality, prejudice I believe that's known as. He played for West Brom last season, what happened to them?

 

Evra has looked more confident as the season has worn on and has rightly kept Heinze - arguably the best LB in the world at one point - out of the team.

 

Arguably. Although I do actually rate Heinze, and think he's head and shoulders above Evra as a player.

 

Carrick, Saha, Park and Fletcher are all decent players and all make a contribution to the squad.

 

But my point was, you can't build a team around these guys. Which you can't.

 

Sure Giggs, Scholes and Neville don't have too many years left in them but you are deluded if you think that they either do not have the players coming through or will not have the resources to replace them

 

Who's coming through? We really haven't seen much from the academy in recent years. Even the much talked about Rossi has been shipped out to Italy or somewhere.

 

Arsenal do indeed have a good young team but they lack discipline, this season has shown how much they struggle without Henry on form.

 

They left themselves swimming upstream at the start of the season, for whatever reason. Call it complacency, fatigue, malaise, I dunno, but they definitely didn't struggle when Henry was injured. Hud on actually i'll even look it up. . Out end of September, Arsenal played 23 games from then till the end of December. They lost 3. Not too shabby. Especially with such a young team.

 

As for making a "couple of signings" again United are more likely than Arsenal to have the clout to pick up a couple of star players whether that be Hargreaves, Torres or whoever.

 

If I were any Premiership team, i wouldn't be quivering with fear at the prospect of Owen Hargreaves' name in the opposition's starting line up. And Torres is a fantasy. Neither team is more likely to be able to use their financial clout, or lack thereof, given that we all know any rated players get snapped up by Chelsea for twice their market value.

 

It's gonna be interesting, next season. I don't think Arsenal will start as poorly as they did this, and if that's the case, Man U will need to improve.

[SiMor]

sorry, who are you talking for here?

Saha has a one in two record for ManUtd. That's pretty good.

Are you sure about that?

Peter Schmeichal? Denis Irwin? Gary Pallister? Roy Keane? Jaap Stam? Ole Gunar Solskjaer?

 

There are countless others I could rhyme off. I by no means believe that Ferguson's record in the transfer market is always spot on, he makes mistakes and he's made some right howlers in his time. But that'll happen, he's been there for more than 20 years. The fact is, he gets it right more often than not. If he didnt, he wouldnt have won what he has. Simple as that really.

 

And the last of those being signed when?

 

98? 99?

 

What's happened since then?

[SiMor]

Saha has a one in two record for ManUtd. That's pretty good.

 

No he doesn't.

[The Proclaimer]

The early 2000s are up for debate.

 

No they're not

 

United are the only team to have won the Premiership 3 years on the bounce

 

98/99, 99/00, 00/01

 

Arsenal then won it in 01/02, and United retained it in 02/03

 

Man United won 8 Premiership titles in 11 years.

 

You're disputing that they DIDN'T set the standard?!?

[The Proclaimer]

Vieira also, although they have a replacement in waiting in Fabregas.

 

Fabregas is a very good player, but he is not Vieira. Nowhere near it

 

Vieira controlled games, Fabregas doesn't do that

[The Proclaimer]

Man United are alright, they've still got the financial clout to buy players like Ronaldo and Rooney which is their main attribute as a club. The Fergie no brainers. The team around them, however, isn't all that amazing. Once Giggs, Scholes and Neville are gone, you'll be a two man team. Ferdinand is sadly lacking. Van Der Sar is ancient. Evra is out of his depth. Carrick, Park, Saha, Fletcher etc just aren't very good. I just don't see any success beyond this or at very most next season. You're too reliant on the leftovers from the class of 92 and a couple of big money signings. The former nearing the ends of their careers. Chelsea will reload and fire again next year, Arsenal will be a more solid unit having gained a lot of experience from this year and they'll adapt. They have a better squad than Man U in my opinion, if even a little on the light side. They have a lot of very good young players, and no really old ones barring Lehmann. A couple of signings, especially if Eto'o is one of them, and they'll be challenging again.

 

This is utter drivel.

 

Ferdinand is lacking? LacKing what exactly?

 

Evra out of his depth? Has he struggled this season, or has he been a revelation? He's keeping Gabriel Heinze out the team for Christ sake

 

Carrick, Park, Saha, Fletcher aren't very good? You're right, they are excellent players

 

Class of '92? Do you even know which United players were playing in '92 and still playing now?

 

Arsenal signing Eto'o? HA F*CKING HA

 

Take note of the following please :-

 

Home Away

Team P W D L F A W D L F A GD PTS

1 Man Utd 28 12 1 1 35 8 10 2 2 30 11 46 69

2 Chelsea 27 10 4 0 30 8 8 2 3 18 11 29 60

3 Liverpool 28 11 3 0 29 3 5 2 7 15 16 25 53

4 Arsenal 26 8 5 0 32 10 6 2 5 16 12 26 49

 

20 points behind

 

Out of the FA Cup

 

Beat in the Carling Cup Final - and making an utter tit of yourselves in the process. 3 players banned!

 

1-0 down in the Champions League

 

f*ck ARSENAL

[The Proclaimer]

I really don't rate Saha. Sorry. I think everyone was a touch amazed when he went for big money to United, as no-one had rated him that highly when he was at Fulham. I don't think he's done much to change that view.

 

No-one rated him highly at Fulham? Um, Fergie obviously did, and anyone who has seen him play would agree

 

I think the class of 92 was a phenomenon, for sure.

 

The class of '92? Man United came second to Leeds in '92...

 

8 Premiership titles in 14 years.

 

You've no idea what you're talking about

 

Fergie, as much as I try to still love him for what he did for us, doesn't have an amazing record in the transfer market for MAn U, barring Cantona. Even then we all knew what Cantona was capable of. Man U trade on image and pure financial clout. Similar to Real Madrid. Every time Fergie has tried to get tricky in the transfer market by signing young, or relatively unknown players, they've fallen short. He's never made a signing as astute as the likes of Vieira, Fabregas, Henry, Pires, or even a player like Nicolas Anelka.

 

Fergie doesn't have an amazing record in the transfer market? Have you ever seen how much he has won in his 25+ years as a manager?!? Cantona, Schmeichel, Solskjaer, etc., etc...

 

He proved again how clever he is with the signing of Larsson.

 

How many players has Arsene Wenger nurtured? He ALWAYS buys...

 

Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Gary Neville, Phil Neville, Butt, Fletcher, etc., etc.

 

It'll be interesting to see how he replaces Giggs, Scholes and Neville when they leave. It really will. I just don't see him being able to build a team that can challenge around the likes of Saha and Michael Carrick. They better hope Ronaldo doesn't go to Real, and Rooney doesn't end up in prison or something, cause if they do I think Man U may be f*cked, at least in the short term.

 

 

(the last part's a joke, incidently. Or at least intended tongue in cheek. Although, now that I think about it, Rooney and prison isn't a complete impossibility.)

 

Seriously, how old are you?

 

You're a stupid Arsenal fan, who obviously knows jack-sh*t about the stuff you're talking about. Petulant, just like the team you support. Always losing badly

 

WE'VE GOT OUR TROPHY BACK

 

Mon' the Benni Mccarthy

[tlg1903]

Ferdinand is lacking? LacKing what exactly?

Ok so i agree with most of what you have said. Some i find debatable but can see your point ofview.

The sentence above i take exception to though

Ferdinand is a big lump. Thats pretty much it. His distribution is poor, his positioning is woefull, a 95 year old man has more control over his bowel movements than ferdinand has over the defensive line. I was amazed when leed signed him even though i knew oleary was an idiot. You honestly could have knocked me over with feather when i heard ferguson wanted him.

[BobbyBiscuit]

And the last of those being signed when?

 

98? 99?

 

What's happened since then?

 

I would chuck Christiano Ronaldo in there too. And Nemanja Vidic. And Gabriel Heinze. Tell me that Arsenal have a better player at the moment than Ronaldo, or that they have better defenders than either Vidic and Heinze and i'll tell you you're a liar.

 

And what's happened since 1998? Man Utd won the treble. Is that enough for you?

 

You're right about Saha's record incidentally. It's not as good as 1 in 2, but isnt AS BAD as 1 in 3... he really should be shown the door...

[The Proclaimer]

Ferdinand is a big lump. Thats pretty much it. His distribution is poor, his positioning is woefull, a 95 year old man has more control over his bowel movements than ferdinand has over the defensive line. I was amazed when leed signed him even though i knew oleary was an idiot. You honestly could have knocked me over with feather when i heard ferguson wanted him.

 

Poor distribution? This is one of his strong points. He always finds a team-mate with his passes, and is confident taking the ball out of defence. Did you see his goal against Liverpool earlier in the season?

 

Poor positioning? He gets caught out like every other defender, but has pace on his side that a lot of other centre backs don't have. Example, did you see Senderos turning when Mccarthy went past him the other night?

 

Poor control of his defence? The best defensive record in the league (19 conceded, along with Liverpool and Chelsea) would suggest otherwise.

[The Proclaimer]

And the last of those being signed when?

 

I don't think I need to list the quality of player that Fergie has signed since '99.

 

 

What's happened since then?

 

Um...

 

Man United set the standard in the 90's/early 2000's, Arsenal upped it with their unbeaten run, Chelsea upped it again in the last 2 years and Man United have taken it up another level this season.

 

See Ronaldo/Rooney/Vidic/Evra/Carrick as new signings who have helped take them up to this level

[The Proclaimer]

No he doesn't.

 

37 goals in 97 appearances

[tlg1903]

Poor distribution? This is one of his strong points. He always finds a team-mate with his passes, and is confident taking the ball out of defence. Did you see his goal against Liverpool earlier in the season?

 

Poor positioning? He gets caught out like every other defender, but has pace on his side that a lot of other centre backs don't have. Example, did you see Senderos turning when Mccarthy went past him the other night?

 

Poor control of his defence? The best defensive record in the league (19 conceded, along with Liverpool and Chelsea) would suggest otherwise.

 

 

nope sorry i totally disagree. distribution? You can see the rest of the team sh*tting it when he trys to be beckenbaur.

 

Hes not that quick a centrehalf either though gets to his top pace reasonably quickly. I find it interesting you use senderos as an example. I didnt see it but i know hes not great. Thing is if you want to see good positioning look at defenders like maldini (now he was quick in his day), Nesta, Terry though to be fair i could start using Spl defenders with better positional sense than rio.

 

As for control of the defence all he ever does is shout a lot. I.e all bark no bite. Craic is he's ok in the premiership but get into the big euro games and he gets found out big time.

[BobbyBiscuit]

nope sorry i totally disagree. distribution? You can see the rest of the team sh*tting it when he trys to be beckenbaur.

 

Hes not that quick a centrehalf either though gets to his top pace reasonably quickly. I find it interesting you use senderos as an example. I didnt see it but i know hes not great. Thing is if you want to see good positioning look at defenders like maldini (now he was quick in his day), Nesta, Terry though to be fair i could start using Spl defenders with better positional sense than rio.

 

As for control of the defence all he ever does is shout a lot. I.e all bark no bite. Craic is he's ok in the premiership but get into the big euro games and he gets found out big time.

 

Have to agree. As much as i like seeing ManU win, i think Ferdinand can be nothing short of atrocious at times. Would actually rather see Ferguson use Heinze as a centre half beside Vidic, and have Evra and Neville as full backs.

[The Proclaimer]

nope sorry i totally disagree.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this!

[tlg1903]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this!

 

Well at least we can agree on somthing to do with this topic. Id just like to add its nice to have a debate that doesnt end in petty name calling. :thumbs:

[The Proclaimer]

Well at least we can agree on somthing to do with this topic. Id just like to add its nice to have a debate that doesnt end in petty name calling. :thumbs:

 

Shut it ye spaz

 

(Sorry - I had to)

[The Proclaimer]

ARSEHOLE WENGER

 

"We commit the lowest fouls in the league but we are the most punished. We are entitled to get the same treatment as everybody else."

 

If they started acting like everyone else, and rid themselves of the bad loser/petulant tag, they might get the treatment he wishes for!

[Baggy89]

ARSEHOLE WENGER

If they started acting like everyone else, and rid themselves of the bad loser/petulant tag, they might get the treatment he wishes for!

You have to admit that if he didn't whine about things like this the whole time, you'd probably be on his side. If the lino claims Adebayor punched Lampard but even Lampard says he didn't there is dishonesty somewhere. If ,as the story is now, that the lino merely claimed that Adebayor "aimed" a punch at Lampard, you would have to question why he was sent off but Lampard himself and Fabregas were not.

Thats my take on it anyway.

[ZeroTolerance]

You have to admit that if he didn't whine about things like this the whole time, you'd probably be on his side. If the lino claims Adebayor punched Lampard but even Lampard says he didn't there is dishonesty somewhere. If ,as the story is now, that the lino merely claimed that Adebayor "aimed" a punch at Lampard, you would have to question why he was sent off but Lampard himself and Fabregas were not.

Thats my take on it anyway.

 

This is exactly the bollocks that has been doing my head in every time people talk about this.

 

Adebayor was disciplined for AIMING A PUNCH at Lampard. Watch the replays and you can see exactly why the lino might have thought this - his arm goes in twice even though he doesn't connect with Lampard. That is enough to justify the sending off.

[Baggy89]

This is exactly the bollocks that has been doing my head in every time people talk about this.

 

Adebayor was disciplined for AIMING A PUNCH at Lampard. Watch the replays and you can see exactly why the lino might have thought this - his arm goes in twice even though he doesn't connect with Lampard. That is enough to justify the sending off.

I suggest you read my post again, or perhaps I didn't make myself clear...

 

Wenger claims the report stated that Adebayor was sent off for PUNCHING Lampard.

 

Lampard says this DID NOT OCCUR

 

IF this is the truth then THERE IS dishonesty somewhere in this line of events.

 

The FA claim it is for for Adebayor AIMING A PUNCH at Lampard

 

IF this is the truth then WHY have Lampard and Fabregas NOT been given the same punishment, there was ACTUAL contact between these two. The FA and the Referee then need to be CONSISTENT in there handing out of punishments.

[The Proclaimer]

Arsehole Wenger should be hung

[ZeroTolerance]

I suggest you read my post again, or perhaps I didn't make myself clear...

 

Wenger claims the report stated that Adebayor was sent off for PUNCHING Lampard.

 

Lampard says this DID NOT OCCUR

 

IF this is the truth then THERE IS dishonesty somewhere in this line of events.

 

The FA claim it is for for Adebayor AIMING A PUNCH at Lampard

 

IF this is the truth then WHY have Lampard and Fabregas NOT been given the same punishment, there was ACTUAL contact between these two. The FA and the Referee then need to be CONSISTENT in there handing out of punishments.

 

You are basing your entire argument on the claims of the worst loser in English football. However the actual report says that Adebayor was sent off for AIMING A PUNCH at Lampard. And I think this is quite clear.

 

Wenger is the biggest f*cking whinger in English football. Whilst playing nice football his team have been an undisciplined rabble almost the entirety of his time there. He's never seen a single one of their zillion red cards yet saw this incident in the minutest detail.

 

Personally the only mistake I think the ref made was to not send off more players.

[SiMor]

Good result today boys, and here was me thinking it was the cup that went to the luckiest team. Another theory disproved.

 

Where to start, I really don't know.

 

Okay, here goes:

 

No they're not

 

United are the only team to have won the Premiership 3 years on the bounce

 

98/99, 99/00, 00/01

 

Arsenal then won it in 01/02, and United retained it in 02/03

 

Man United won 8 Premiership titles in 11 years.

 

You're disputing that they DIDN'T set the standard?!?

 

 

My comment was that the early 2000s are up for debate. Which they are. 98/99 is not early 2000s. If you want to include 99/00, which I suppose we can, then chalk up one. They won it in 00/01 as well. 2-0. Arsenal won it in 01/02. 2-1. Man U won it in 02/03. 3-1. Arsenal won it in 03/04(the unbeaten season). 3-2. 3-2 by anyone's estimation is hardly a drubbing. Which is why I stated, quite rightly, that they were up for debate.

 

Fabregas is a very good player, but he is not Vieira. Nowhere near it

 

Vieira controlled games, Fabregas doesn't do that

 

Replacement in waiting. Give the boy a chance, he's only what, 19? He does have rather large boots to fill. He is after all replacing a guy who was the best midfielder on the planet.

 

Ferdinand is lacking? LacKing what exactly?

 

Talent.

 

Evra out of his depth? Has he struggled this season, or has he been a revelation? He's keeping Gabriel Heinze out the team for Christ sake

 

We've been through this.

 

Carrick, Park, Saha, Fletcher aren't very good? You're right, they are excellent players

 

One minute they're squad players, the next, world beaters? Incidently,

[Guest LondonScottish]

Wow!!! There's a lot of pretty misguided anger there young man..... nothing like looking at the World through Emirates-tinted spectacles!!!

[SiMor]

I'm positively awestruck by your retort.

 

Good job.

 

Great points made.

 

Ach what the f*ck i'll bite. . It must be my turn anyway. .

 

What you misconceive as anger, I see as filling in a few minutes ribbing the swell of Aberdeen based Manc fans who are most likely not old enough to remember the Fergie days, yet use his being there as an excuse to jump on the gravy train.

 

Sometimes I don't know whether to laugh or cry, as the money they spend 'supporting' their second team is needed much more by their first.