Israel/gaza Thread

[tommo1903]

C_S, don't take this the wrong way, but you remind me of the "It is but a fleshwound" knight in Monty Python.

[alscotoz]

Monty Python was funny but CS is hilarious. Different leagues.

[spamspamspam]

Got anything to add to the NTI information CS?

 

Maybe you know things they dont.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

C_S, don't take this the wrong way, but you remind me of the "It is but a fleshwound" knight in Monty Python.

 

Ive never seen the character you mean (pythons over-rated lol) but I will take that as a compliment

[fatjim]

 

Ive never seen the character you mean (pythons over-rated lol) but I will take that as a compliment

You shouldn't. He is implying that you are losing badly but keep coming back for more.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Some Muslim girl at work today told me she's boycotting Coca Cola because 'it supports Israel'. She's also boycotting Tesco because Israeli products purchased by Tesco help fund weapons to attack Palestine. She says an App on her phone told her to boycott them. What the fuck??? Get a fuckin life you idiot. .

 

Tell you are doing a bumper shop at Marks and Spencer this weekend

[Clydeside_Sheep]

You shouldn't. He is implying that you are losing badly but keep coming back for more.

 

Thank you for clarifying fatjim, I will buy you a pint for that (which would entail you having to suffer my company in person lol).

 

I think my arguments are pretty sound, in so far as showing there is more to the conflict than meets the eye.

 

I don't see how its at all credible to support islamic extremists who have explicitly ruled out a peaceful solution to the conflict and who will civilian deaths to demonise Israel. Call me crazy.

 

OK, we can make the distinction between the Palestinians and Hammas, but then no such courtesy is afforded to the Jews (for example an israeli show at the fringe attracted negative attention, as though it were the performance group themselves manning the artillery. Israelis going about their business often take the brunt of populist sentiment about the matter. Didnt some potato-fancier once make a big show at Ibrox over it, when the huns were playing an Israeli side?)

 

I dont blindly back or support Israel, I just think theres much more to it than meets the eye at first.

 

But nevertheless (as the great man, Bluto10, said) its not worth falling out over (or something like that anyway).

[fatjim]

 

Thank you for clarifying fatjim, I will buy you a pint for that (which would entail you having to suffer my company in person lol).

 

I think my arguments are pretty sound, in so far as showing there is more to the conflict than meets the eye.

 

I don't see how its at all credible to support islamic extremists who have explicitly ruled out a peaceful solution to the conflict and who will civilian deaths to demonise Israel. Call me crazy.

 

OK, we can make the distinction between the Palestinians and Hammas, but then no such courtesy is afforded to the Jews (for example an israeli show at the fringe attracted negative attention, as though it were the performance group themselves manning the artillery. Israelis going about their business often take the brunt of populist sentiment about the matter. Didnt some potato-fancier once make a big show at Ibrox over it, when the huns were playing an Israeli side?)

 

I dont blindly back or support Israel, I just think theres much more to it than meets the eye at first.

 

But nevertheless (as the great man, Bluto10, said) its not worth falling out over (or something like that anyway).

I don't really drink but thanks for the offer of a date.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/syria/

 

really?

 

Looks to me like if they wanted to they could bomb Israel repeatedly with several different types of missiles and war heads. I doubt your man on the hill would see them coming either.

 

Yes really.

 

You are right that they could fire "several different types of missiles and war heads" but they would be firing them from Soviet-era military equipment.

 

Heres some info on Syrian army equipment, types and numbers:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/army-equipment.htm

 

Towed and SP artillery is about halfway down. As far as I can see their most modern artillery systems date from the early 1970s - nearly half a century old. The bulk of their artillery dates from the 50s / 60s.

 

I admit that the early-70s items is slightly more modern that I thought, but my point is they have no modern artillery systems and rely on ageing soviet designs. (Which can still be effective though, as said.)

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I don't really drink but thanks for the offer of a date.

It proves you right, when you said on the other thread that you 'get a lot of action without even trying'

 

What does "not really drinking" manifest like?

 

Ive heard of folk who drink, and folk who don't, but never anyone who "doesn't really" drink.

 

Is a warranted here?

[Dandyesque]

 

Thank you for clarifying fatjim, I will buy you a pint for that (which would entail you having to suffer my company in person lol).

 

I think my arguments are pretty sound, in so far as showing there is more to the conflict than meets the eye.

 

I don't see how its at all credible to support islamic extremists who have explicitly ruled out a peaceful solution to the conflict and who will civilian deaths to demonise Israel. Call me crazy.

 

OK, we can make the distinction between the Palestinians and Hammas, but then no such courtesy is afforded to the Jews (for example an israeli show at the fringe attracted negative attention, as though it were the performance group themselves manning the artillery. Israelis going about their business often take the brunt of populist sentiment about the matter. Didnt some potato-fancier once make a big show at Ibrox over it, when the huns were playing an Israeli side?)

 

I dont blindly back or support Israel, I just think theres much more to it than meets the eye at first.

 

But nevertheless (as the great man, Bluto10, said) its not worth falling out over (or something like that anyway).

 

 

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

 

Worth remembering that sometimes

[spamspamspam]

 

Yes really.

 

You are right that they could fire "several different types of missiles and war heads" but they would be firing them from Soviet-era military equipment.

 

Heres some info on Syrian army equipment, types and numbers:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/army-equipment.htm

 

Towed and SP artillery is about halfway down. As far as I can see their most modern artillery systems date from the early 1970s - nearly half a century old. The bulk of their artillery dates from the 50s / 60s.

 

I admit that the early-70s items is slightly more modern that I thought, but my point is they have no modern artillery systems and rely on ageing soviet designs. (Which can still be effective though, as said.)

You've change your goalposts again.

[Bluto10]

Reading this topic you'd think some on here have the whole centuries long conflict nailed.

 

Should maybe take up a job with the UN rather than AFC chat posting.

[daytripping]

Reading this topic you'd think some on here have the whole centuries long conflict nailed.

 

Should maybe take up a job with the UN rather than AFC chat posting.

 

I would just nuke Israel mate, would be nice and quick, quick tip of the hat then on to my next peace mission.

[Bluto10]

Parachute out the bakers though first; canna beat a fresh bagel.

[fatjim]

It proves you right, when you said on the other thread that you 'get a lot of action without even trying' What does "not really drinking" manifest like? Ive heard of folk who drink, and folk who don't, but never anyone who "doesn't really" drink. Is a warranted here?

You are the one offering to buy me a drink. Who knows what your intentions are.

 

In answer to your question though. I have the occasional drink every other month. Not really into booze. It is ok in moderation but as soon as you over do it you feel terrible for days, you end up getting too pissed and unable to attend a football match because you have turned into a slavering fucktard.

 

People give my wife and I bottles of wine and they just sit in the wine rack for months.

[Bluto10]

You sound pretty exciting fatjim.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

You've change your goalposts again.

 

No, I substantiated what I said - again.

 

My argument was that Syrians have no modern artillery systems and I have shown they don't.

 

Give it up.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

You are the one offering to buy me a drink. Who knows what your intentions are.

My lusting over aspiring comedians is well known

In answer to your question though. I have the occasional drink every other month. Not really into booze. It is ok in moderation but as soon as you over do it you feel terrible for days, you end up getting too pissed and unable to attend a football match because you have turned into a slavering fucktard.

Fair doos.

People give my wife and I bottles of wine and they just sit in the wine rack for months.

I would be happy to dispose of this unwanted wine on your behalf, thus freeing up valuable storage space in your home. Think about it!

[Clydeside_Sheep]

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

 

Worth remembering that sometimes

I totally agree with you. I weight them up by thinking of the consequences should they prevail.

 

Look at guys like Gerry Adams, Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mandela. The first two are still widely hated, while Mandelas reputation underwent a big reinvention.

 

All of their success had generally positive consequences (even though Mugabe became a dictator, hes still an improvement on a racially ordered state).

 

If Hammas prevail, and succeed in erecting an Islamic theocracy in place of Israel, my argument is that the consequences are very bad for everyone except heterosexual male islamic extremists.

 

In such a state, women are treated like cattle, non-islamic religions are subject to bomb attacks and harrassment and folk like gays and atheists are publicly hanged from cranes. An islamic state is the absolute pits, the most barbarous excuse for civilisation I can think of.

 

Hammas are the same as Al Queda. The same as ISIS. The same as Boko Haram. Its incoherent for the west to condemn islamic extremism in some cases, yet support it in others.

 

Disliking Hammas doesnt mean I like the Palestinians to suffer - no, I want there to be a prompt and peaceful solution. But Hammas explicitly reject any peaceful solution or agreement.

[fatjim]

You sound pretty exciting fatjim.

You sound like a sad alcoholic who needs booze to socialise.

[fatjim]

My lusting over aspiring comedians is well known

Aspiring is stretching it a bit.

 

I would say exercising my mid life crisis describes it better.

[spamspamspam]

 

 

- the golan heights are of high strategic importance. They are a perfect artillery position (the syrian army would regularly shell israeli civilians from them) and they offer excellent views of what is going on around the place. They are also a useful natural barrier to thwart armoured warfare.

 

Southern Syria and the capital Damascus, about 60 km (40 miles) north, are clearly visible from the top of the Heights while Syrian artillery regularly shelled the whole of northern Israel from 1948 to 1967 when Syria controlled the Heights.

 

The heights give Israel an excellent vantage point for monitoring Syrian movements. The topography provides a natural buffer against any military thrust from Syria.

 

I appreciate that currently Syria is not currently a threat to Israel, given its own civil war, but the Israelis will be waiting to see how the dust settles on that, before making any big decisions about their occupation.

 

 

Guess what - Syrian artillery in 2014 is the same inventory as it was in the 60s. Soviet era 40s/50s stuff.

 

While old, some of it is decent. D-30 howitzers (122mm) are still decent weapons, even in a direct fire role vs tanks.

 

They have been upgrading their anti-aircraft defences, (fear of the yanks / west), not arty. If a 70 year old artillery piece is adequate to shell israeli civilians from the golan heights, why bother upgrading?

 

 

 

 

- I assure you syria only has the usual compliment of Sov-era arty, the stuff all the arabs have / had.

 

- You can see for miles from the Golan, especially the dust clouds an armoured column would kick up.

 

 

 

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/syria/

 

really?

 

Looks to me like if they wanted to they could bomb Israel repeatedly with several different types of missiles and war heads. I doubt your man on the hill would see them coming either.

 

 

 

Yes really.

 

You are right that they could fire "several different types of missiles and war heads" but they would be firing them from Soviet-era military equipment.

 

Heres some info on Syrian army equipment, types and numbers:

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/army-equipment.htm

 

Towed and SP artillery is about halfway down. As far as I can see their most modern artillery systems date from the early 1970s - nearly half a century old. The bulk of their artillery dates from the 50s / 60s.

 

I admit that the early-70s items is slightly more modern that I thought, but my point is they have no modern artillery systems and rely on ageing soviet designs. (Which can still be effective though, as said.)

 

 

First you say Israel has to occupy the west bank for defensive reasons. You say they need to watch Damascus for Syrian missiles being fired over the hill, its their first line of defence against Syria was your assumption.

Then you say thats because the Syrians only have ex soviet missiles. Missiles that are ageing and only have a small range. You state clearly that they have no advances since the 40's and 50's and only have the capability of soviet 60's missiles.

 

You clearly reiterate this several times. You also state that you can assure us all this is the case

 

I give you a link that states that Syria has one of the largest stocks of ballistic missiles in the region. The scud-d has a 700km range and is equipped with advanced guidance systems. I'll stress the word advanced here, as in can hit something within a couple of metres from 700km away.

 

Your story changes from the missiles they have to the launch pad they have for their missiles.

 

That is clearly changing your argument and the goal posts.

 

Read the info in the link.

Syria have their own ballistic missile program

Syria have Iranian missiles capable of reaching targets 700km away

Syria had chemical capability, the UK supplied it remember

Syria could if it wanted to build a dirty bomb and nuke Israel

Syria if it wanted could fire at any time and it would be the Israeli early warning systems that told them what was coming and not the man with binoculars on the hill Israel are occupying and settling while they herd Palestinians into a small piece of land and then bomb them indiscriminately.

 

Syria has a lot more at its disposal than a few missiles that can be fired over a hill.

 

That means your argument for Israel holding onto Palestinian land on the west bank for defensive purposes because its needed against the Syrian missile threat that is fired over the hill and their boy on the hill can see it first (forgetting about Israels eyes in the sky and early warning systems as well but never mind) and as a vantage point to keep an eye in Syria is out of date by around 15 years. A lot of your information is out of date by anything from 5 years to 30 years when it comes to this situation yet you have firmly based your arguments and your beliefs on this information.

 

If you are basing your defence of Israel on this, which you partly have, then dont you think you should at least re-evaluate your stance and reasons for defending them?

 

Just to add it doent matter what they fire it from, its what they are firing that counts. Any missile can be adapted to fire from any piece of equipment what they are manufacturing that missile themselves, aye?

[Bluto10]

You sound like a sad alcoholic who needs booze to socialise.

I'll take that abuse from folk who are normal; nae some teetotal bore

[fatjim]

I'll take that abuse from folk who are normal; nae some teetotal bore

Cool you will take it from me then.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

First you say Israel has to occupy the west bank for defensive reasons. You say they need to watch Damascus for Syrian missiles being fired over the hill, its their first line of defence against Syria was your assumption.

Then you say thats because the Syrians only have ex soviet missiles. Missiles that are ageing and only have a small range. You state clearly that they have no advances since the 40's and 50's and only have the capability of soviet 60's missiles.

 

You clearly reiterate this several times. You also state that you can assure us all this is the case

 

I give you a link that states that Syria has one of the largest stocks of ballistic missiles in the region. The scud-d has a 700km range and is equipped with advanced guidance systems. I'll stress the word advanced here, as in can hit something within a couple of metres from 700km away.

 

Your story changes from the missiles they have to the launch pad they have for their missiles.

 

That is clearly changing your argument and the goal posts.

 

Spamx3, why do you plague me so? (I actually like you despite this.)

 

I never mentioned Syrian missiles.

 

I recalled that Syria had used the Golan heights to shell (ie artillery fire, not missiles) Israeli civilians and thats why Israeli occupies the heights - to stop the Syrians using it as an artillery position.

 

I haven't mentioned Syrian missiles at all, (until you did), I didn't even know or care that they had missiles, nor was it relevant to my argument.

 

My arguments were all about the artillery, not missiles. It was artillery pieces the Syrians put on the heights in the 60s, not missiles.

 

Btw SCUD missiles are ageing relics, even the "D" variant you mention is about quarter of a century old.

 

If Israel gave up the heights today, the durka-durkas would be up there firing their rockets (again, not missiles) tomorrow.

[spamspamspam]

 

Spamx3, why do you plague me so? (I actually like you despite this.)

 

I never mentioned Syrian missiles.

 

I recalled that Syria had used the Golan heights to shell (ie artillery fire, not missiles) Israeli civilians and thats why Israeli occupies the heights - to stop the Syrians using it as an artillery position.

 

I haven't mentioned Syrian missiles at all, (until you did), I didn't even know or care that they had missiles, nor was it relevant to my argument.

 

My arguments were all about the artillery, not missiles. It was artillery pieces the Syrians put on the heights in the 60s, not missiles.

 

Btw SCUD missiles are ageing relics, even the "D" variant you mention is about quarter of a century old.

 

If Israel gave up the heights today, the durka-durkas would be up there firing their rockets (again, not missiles) tomorrow.

 

If they wanted to attack them they can, hill or no hill.

 

It isnt Israeli land, its illegally occupied and they are now moving Israelis in. 3300 or so houses being built.

 

Its ethnic cleansing of the area pure and simple, claiming land and making sure no Palestinian will ever return. They move them out, occupy, claim its for defensive reasons and then build houses and move in for good. Every year more and more settlements appear, more and more land the Palestinians will never get back. Meanwhile they bomb whats left of them indiscriminately, claim its targeted and give 'warning' but they know there are women and children all over there and they still bomb them so it is indiscriminate and it is illegal.

 

The design is old, they were making them themselves, not buying them in so the missiles arent old rusty bangers. They were getting components from China, UK, Iran and building them themselves. Still are, largest arsenal of them in the region.

 

I 'plague' because you, for some strange reason, act like a carefree cunt on this thread and an ignorant cunt on the other we spar on. You hold up shite, propaganda, as the ultimate proof that its all just self preservation in this case and pick the most right wing agenda new outlets as your backing of some real out there what will happen after independence rants.

 

You have some right weird ideas min.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

If they wanted to attack them they can, hill or no hill.

They cant effectively attack with artillery, if Israel has the hill. Thats the whole point.

It isnt Israeli land

It is now. Do catch up.

making sure no Palestinian will ever return.

Would you want someone to return, if they had been shelling you? I know I wouldnt.

Every year more and more settlements appear, more and more land the Palestinians will never get back.

1) yes, hammas make a rod for the palestinians own back

 

2) you are probably right that they will never get it back, so perhaps move on instead? The alternative is perpetual war. Scotland will never get berwick-upon-tweed back - but we don't shell / rocket it.

 

you, for some strange reason, act like a carefree cunt on this thread and an ignorant cunt on the other we spar on

So a c*nt in either case? lol. At least im consistent I suppose.

You have some right weird ideas min.

I don't think I am half as weird as the posters who are anti-religion on some threads, yet who blindly back islamic extremists on this one.

 

Consistency is a wonderful thing, my friend.

 

Peace isnt a difficult thing in principle, its only difficult due to how obstinate humans are.

 

To have peace, we only need to get over ourselves and love our neighbour. I would say that is among the greatest enlightenments Christianity has brought me. Christianity is good at pointing out what should be obvious to us, but is not. It is simple but profound.

 

About 15 years ago, I viewed UK borders like the last redoubt at rorkes drift, how absurd. Love your neighbour. Today I am privileged to call people friends whom previously would have horrified me with their very presence.

 

Who gives a fuck who claims what bit of land? Love your neighbour and stop shelling one another.

 

If you can love your neighbour, its amazing how irrelevant / puerile all other thoughts become.

 

No amount of Palestinian rockets or IDF shells will ever end this conflict. Only love will. Yet today, so many of us reject the love that never disappoints, or even pervert it into a justification for conflict.

[Ke1t]

Israel occupies the heights because, as previously mentioned, 40% of Israeli fresh water comes from the aquifers under the Golan Heights, not because some dude with binoculars can see for a few miles, nor because they form some impossible barrier for aircraft, shells, or missiles.

[spamspamspam]

It is now. Do catch up.

 

It does not belong to nor has it ever belonged to Israel.

 

I take it back, you dont come across like a dick, you are a dick.

 

A clueless one at that