Israel/gaza Thread

[elephantstone78]

Just watching bbc news. President Obama is condemning Hamas for capturing an Israeli soldier. Am I missing something here but during this war and it certainly is a war albeit an unevenly matched one surely a soldier being captured is the least of the things to condemn. He is a soldier and he is not dead not a non combatant child.

 

I generally agree with the bulk of your comments spam cubed but to say where else could Hamas store the rockets other than schools/hospitals is stretching things a bit far.

 

Why even bother sending these thousands of rockets. They cause (by in large) no damage due to Israeli's force field / defence shield and just result in their territory and people being blown to smithereens. Utterly pointless unless the aim is to generate negative publicity against Israel. Israel do not give a flyer about negative publicity.

 

If I was a Palestinian resident or supporter I would urge the end to the rockets. By all means if they want to pop out a tunnel and shoot at soldiers crack on but these actions do not generally end well either. Unless you are an Israeli. Then again Hamas were elected by the people so they have a legitimacy other terrorist groups do not share. By voting for them they have signed their own death warrants. All in all a tragic state of affairs.

[vanderark14]

Just watching bbc news. President Obama is condemning Hamas for capturing an Israeli soldier. Am I missing something here but during this war and it certainly is a war albeit an unevenly matched one surely a soldier being captured is the least of the things to condemn. He is a soldier and he is not dead not a non combatant child.

 

I generally agree with the bulk of your comments spam cubed but to say where else could Hamas store the rockets other than schools/hospitals is stretching things a bit far.

 

Why even bother sending these thousands of rockets. They cause (by in large) no damage due to Israeli's force field / defence shield and just result in their territory and people being blown to smithereens. Utterly pointless unless the aim is to generate negative publicity against Israel. Israel do not give a flyer about negative publicity.

 

If I was a Palestinian resident or supporter I would urge the end to the rockets. By all means if they want to pop out a tunnel and shoot at soldiers crack on but these actions do not generally end well either. Unless you are an Israeli. Then again Hamas were elected by the people so they have a legitimacy other terrorist groups do not share. By voting for them they have signed their own death warrants. All in all a tragic state of affairs.

 

 

the palestinians have no other choice but to fight though, there land, homes and freedom have been taken from them piece by piece so to them the only option is hamas who will fight back even if its with weapons that cause little or no damage.

 

its either fight or sit back and let Israel take everything you have away.

[chaos_defrost]

@elephantstone - This kidnapped soldier that's making the news is just playing into Israel's hands in justifying what they're doing. Takes the pressure off America to do anything about the whole situation as well as you could clearly see Obama gladly taking full advantage of in his press conference.

 

@Vanderark - Also the conditions the Palestinians are living in, in abject poverty, with no hope and with mothers and fathers having their children killed for no reason is bound to breed extremism.

[tightbreeks]

those 3 Israeli children that were killed was the catalyst. any excuse to get tore in.

 

it's changed days. the edl running about with the star of david on their English flags. back in the 70's/80's that would've been a no no with the national front.

[tightbreeks]

of course hamas may or may not have weapons near schools, they're desperate. the isrealis should offer them terms, it's ridiculous.

 

the isreali tail is wagging the yankee dug, profusely.

 

disgusting.

[tightbreeks]

it's the siege of minas tirith.

[Bluto10]

Its one big fat mess.

And they're both as bad as each other.

 

Will make a good vin diesel movie one day though.

[tightbreeks]

vin diesel would be Yasser Arafat.

[tightbreeks]

or is that Hezbollah?

[Bluto10]

Gotta roll out alexy sale too for these filns

[tightbreeks]

ben kingsley as some nutty stormtrooper.

[Ke1t]

This is a perfect example of how the criticism of Israel is called 'anti-semitism'.

 

The article claims anti-semitism, yet isn't able to post a single image of an ant-semitic sign or cite one anti-semitic chant at the protest.

 

All they've shown is an anti-Israel sign, and imply that the people protesting were all wearing Burkas.

 

Spectator

[ChutneyLove]

I'm just nae sure about those jew types. What with there funny beards, ringlets, strange hats and mutilated penises. I think I'm with the arabs on this one.

[Bluto10]

Saw them at the airport on Sunday on their way to Schiphol.

 

5 or 6 of them.

All young guys dressed in cheap suits with stupid hats.

They look like complete fuckin berks.

[Bluto10]

Also Schipol seems to be the only place I ever see them.

Or end route to schipol.

Must be for Ajax games I guess.

[360]

Baroness Warsi has resigned as Foreign Minister.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28656874

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I read up a bit on Hammas, they have their goals etc set-out in a charter document. Some interesting parts:

 

In the introduction it says:

 

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

 

So the end point to this conflict for Hammas is the obliteration of israel, not a peaceful settlement accommodating everyone.

 

Does this sound reasonable?

 

From Article 6:

 

Hammas "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned"

 

So their goal is for Islam to wholly dominate the region - how do non-muslims feel about that?

 

How would the pro-Hammas debators here feel about a policy "to raise the banner of the flying spaghetti monster (religion or ideology xyz) " over every inch of Scotland?

 

The article goes on to claim that followers of all religions can expect security under Islam - what a joke that is, as we can see from various examples elsewhere.

 

The article finishes with a condemnation of atheism:

 

"If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life."

 

In Article 13, a peaceful solution to the conflict is explicitly rejected:

 

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement

 

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors

 

The only solution for them is via jihad (religious war)

 

The document is full of slurs about the Jews, notably in Article 32 which - amazingly - references The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (a notorious anti-semitic hoax document claiming the jews want to dominate the world.). It is strange that they refer to supposed jewish plans for domination as evil, while espousing their own plans for islamic domination elsewhere in the document.

 

See these links:

 

(Yale University) (for some reason this links keeps disappearing but its the top result if you google "Hammas + Yale University")

 

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm (FAS - Federation of American Scientists)

 

In contrast I think the Israel's government only asserts Israels right to exist.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I generally agree with the bulk of your comments spam cubed but to say where else could Hamas store the rockets other than schools/hospitals is stretching things a bit far.

 

 

Jeez, you think?

 

Btw in the Gulf War Saddam Husssein didn't really use human shields, he just had nowhere else to put them

[Ke1t]

I read up a bit on Hammas, they have their goals etc set-out in a charter document. Some interesting parts:

 

In the introduction it says:

 

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

 

So the end point to this conflict for Hammas is the obliteration of israel, not a peaceful settlement accommodating everyone.

 

Does this sound reasonable?

 

From Article 6:

 

Hammas "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned"

 

So their goal is for Islam to wholly dominate the region - how do non-muslims feel about that?

 

How would the pro-Hammas debators here feel about a policy "to raise the banner of the flying spaghetti monster (religion or ideology xyz) " over every inch of Scotland?

 

The article goes on to claim that followers of all religions can expect security under Islam - what a joke that is, as we can see from various examples elsewhere.

 

The article finishes with a condemnation of atheism:

 

"If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life."

 

In Article 13, a peaceful solution to the conflict is explicitly rejected:

 

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement

 

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors

 

The only solution for them is via jihad (religious war)

 

The document is full of slurs about the Jews, notably in Article 32 which - amazingly - references The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. (a notorious anti-semitic hoax document claiming the jews want to dominate the world.). It is strange that they refer to supposed jewish plans for domination as evil, while espousing their own plans for islamic domination elsewhere in the document.

 

See these links:

 

(Yale University) (for some reason this links keeps disappearing but its the top result if you google "Hammas + Yale University")

 

http://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm (FAS - Federation of American Scientists)

 

In contrast I think the Israel's government only asserts Israels right to exist.

 

 

In no particular order.

 

* Hamas isn't the Palestinian people. It's a militant organisation. You may as well hold up the IRA's ideologies as representative of the Irish people.

 

* If Israel's only assertion was 'a right to exist' Israel wouldn't be expanding its territory to encompass the West Bank... illegally, I should point out. Nor occupying the Golan heights.

 

* The Torah advocates slavery, and guidelines for murdering non-Jews.

 

* The Samson Option (The fluffy, public-friendly face of Israeli plans for us should shit go south)

[spamspamspam]

 

 

45 years later we had the first real, lasting ceasefire.

 

Achieved through dialog, not through carpet bombing children.

 

Get the picture?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

 

In no particular order.

 

* Hamas isn't the Palestinian people. It's a militant organisation. You may as well hold up the IRA's ideologies as representative of the Irish people.

 

* If Israel's only assertion was 'a right to exist' Israel wouldn't be expanding its territory to encompass the West Bank... illegally, I should point out. Nor occupying the Golan heights.

 

* The Torah advocates slavery, and guidelines for murdering non-Jews.

 

* The Samson Option (The fluffy, public-friendly face of Israeli plans for us should shit go south)

 

- its the Hammas organisation who are a participant in the conflict, not the Palestinian people.

 

- The occupied Israeli lands are those occupied after the 6 day war, when many arab nations attacked israel. Israel occupies the areas to increase its security. If the arabs had not attacked, there would be no need for the occupations. Just like if Hammas didnt fire rockets, Israel would not need to bombard Gaza. Its the arabs who always start it, but they get the sympathy because they always lose. I prefer that Israel didnt occupy those areas, but we both know that if they withdrew, the areas would become new zones of operation for militants.

 

- Israel is a plural democracy, not a theorcracy. The Torah is not a Israeli government document. Most israelis are secular jews (though I accept orthodox jews yield a lot of influence).

 

- never heard of samson option, I will look it up.

[Ke1t]

 

- its the Hammas organisation who are a participant in the conflict, not the Palestinian people.

 

- The occupied Israeli lands are those occupied after the 6 day war, when many arab nations attacked israel. Israel occupies the areas to increase its security. If the arabs had not attacked, there would be no need for the occupations. Just like if Hammas didnt fire rockets, Israel would not need to bombard Gaza. Its the arabs who always start it, but they get the sympathy because they always lose. I prefer that Israel didnt occupy those areas, but we both know that if they withdrew, the areas would become new zones of operation for militants.

 

- Israel is a plural democracy, not a theorcracy. The Torah is not a Israeli government document. Most israelis are secular jews (though I accept orthodox jews yield a lot of influence).

 

- never heard of samson option, I will look it up.

 

 

* You are incorrect. The Palestinian people are participants in the conflict every time the IDF murders them.

 

* Israel occupies the Golan Heights because it contains aquifers essential to agriculture within Israel. There's no strategic advantage to occupying the heights in an age of aircraft, rockets, and long range artillery.

 

* The Torah is representative of the Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish state.

 

* The Samson option is the public-friendly version of what Israel supposedly plans.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

45 years later we had the first real, lasting ceasefire.

 

Achieved through dialog, not through carpet bombing children.

 

Get the picture?

 

The document you refer to is from a different / earlier / defunct republican organisation than what you and I know as "the IRA" (the modern organisation of Adams, McGuinnes etc)

 

Additionally it only asks people to "continue their efforts" to get rid of what they regard as invaders - it doesn't explicitly advocate violence and certainly not religious violence.

 

I think modern day republicans would argue that they are still doing this, "continuing their efforts" - though via politics, and not conflict.

[spamspamspam]

Hamas has 1 m, not 2. I'm no spelling police, just thought I'd point that out as you're writing it quite a lot so you might want to get it right. I am surprised though, you seem to know a lot about them

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/israel-announces-new-settlement-expansion-20146553145984773.html

 

They have no right to that land under any internationally recognised treaty yet build 3300 homes on it and move their people in.

[spamspamspam]

 

The document you refer to is from a different / earlier / defunct republican organisation than what you and I know as "the IRA" (the modern organisation of Adams, McGuinnes etc)

 

Additionally it only asks people to "continue their efforts" to get rid of what they regard as invaders - it doesn't explicitly advocate violence.

 

I think they would argue that they are still doing this - though via politics, and not conflict.

 

 

Thats only part of it, thought you'd know that ina

 

The full statement is a call to arms and also states that the UK will try and bring America into the fight, if they did then any US soldier would have to pick his side and would not be overlooked.

 

How old is this manifesto you are quoting from?

 

The PLO are the ones Israel deal with. Hamas is just one of several dissident groups, none of them under direct control of the PLO as far as anyone can tell.

[Bluto10]

CS so eone else will tell you that the stinians are complexly innocent in all of this.

 

And vice versa.

 

Its a fuckin mess.

 

And nae worth our time.

[spamspamspam]

 

The document you refer to is from a different / earlier / defunct republican organisation than what you and I know as "the IRA" (the modern organisation of Adams, McGuinnes etc)

 

Additionally it only asks people to "continue their efforts" to get rid of what they regard as invaders - it doesn't explicitly advocate violence and certainly not religious violence.

 

I think modern day republicans would argue that they are still doing this, "continuing their efforts" - though via politics, and not conflict.

 

 

Gerry Adams?

Didnt he used to go onto TV in a balaclava and have his voice changed by the BBC? Didnt he used to threaten our government all the time? DIdnt his group claim responsibility for the Manchester bombings? Hasnt he just been arrested for killings in 1978 when he was in the IRA?

 

Wasnt he an MP?

 

I'm sure you get the picture

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

 

* You are incorrect. The Palestinian people are participants in the conflict every time the IDF murders them.

 

* Israel occupies the Golan Heights because it contains aquifers essential to agriculture within Israel. There's no strategic advantage to occupying the heights in an age of aircraft, rockets, and long range artillery.

 

* The Torah is representative of the Jewish people. Israel is a Jewish state.

 

* The Samson option is the public-friendly version of what Israel supposedly plans.

 

- well, its hammas who fire the rockets and so we can only have peace when they agree to peace. What is in the hammas document has important consequences regarding the chance of peace.

 

- the golan heights are of high strategic importance. They are a perfect artillery position (the syrian army would regularly shell israeli civilians from them) and they offer excellent views of what is going on around the place. They are also a useful natural barrier to thwart armoured warfare.

 

Southern Syria and the capital Damascus, about 60 km (40 miles) north, are clearly visible from the top of the Heights while Syrian artillery regularly shelled the whole of northern Israel from 1948 to 1967 when Syria controlled the Heights.

 

The heights give Israel an excellent vantage point for monitoring Syrian movements. The topography provides a natural buffer against any military thrust from Syria.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14724842

 

- Israel is a secular democracy; its a "jewish state" only in the same way that e.g. Italy is a "catholic state". Even if the Torah could be held up as being wholly representative of them, its clear that the Israeli Government does not adhere to whatever horrors it advocates for non-jews.

 

I appreciate that currently Syria is not currently a threat to Israel, given its own civil war, but the Israelis will be waiting to see how the dust settles on that, before making any big decisions about their occupation.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

How old is this manifesto you are quoting from?

 

 

1988.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Its a fuckin mess.

 

And nae worth our time.

 

You are probably right my man!