Jews

[Coopy100]

I read the whole thing.. don't automatically assume that someone reading your post will then be compelled to agree with you. I read your post and I still disagree with you. If, in 100 years time the Israelis stop acting like complete scumballs then I'll happily change my opinion accordingly. To respond specifically to your red text, I'm not blaming Judaism for the humanitarian abuses by Israel, and I don't see anyone else doing that either. Israel is a Jewish state, so I can safely say that those particular Jews are f**kers... but not because they're Jews, but because those people are f**kers. Just like I might say white power groups are dickheads... not because they're white but because they're dickheads with f**ked up ideals. Those particular white folks are dickheads. Israel is run by dickheads with f**ked up Ideals. Those particular Jews are dickheads.

So we agree on that then. It is not the fact it is jewish it is the fact it is run by dickheads. Which was my main point in that part. Oh and I don't automatically think some one will be compelled to agree with me. i'm not RS.

 

 

 

That's a pretty poor analogy, and I'll tell you why.

 

By the time of the Dresden bombing we were not in a fight to the death. The Germans were in full retreat, they had lost the large part of their elite divisions in Russia, we had complete air supremacy, the Reich was starved of fuel, we were a mere 6 or 7 months from German capitulation. The Soviets had retaken their lost territory, and were more or less at the German border. Any notion that we were still facing invasion or domination by the NAZIs was long gone.

 

Israel has fought its wars and is currently armed with WMD. Even the Iranians, portrayed as wild-eyed lunatics in the Western media, are aware of the implications of assaulting the Israeli state. No-one is rushing to invade Israel, backed as it is with its own nuclear weapons and the might of the United States, who have a couple of carrier groups there or there abouts at all times, backing them up. And all the out-of-context rhetoric FOX or SKY 'report' isn't going to change the reality that not Iraq, Iran, Syria or Egypt are interested in getting into a war with the Israelis.

 

Gaza, on the other hand, is a giant camp filled with men, women and children... largely noncombatants. Israel routinely and forcibly halts medical and humanitarian aid to the camp. It's not an industrial centre supplying tanks or aircraft or munitions to the Arab States, it's a place for depositing unwanted people, the easier to keep them under Israeli control.

 

To compare it to Dresden is just bizarre.

No it is not IMO. Both were perpetrated by states that felt, rightly or wrongly, they were/are involved in a total war. Anything and everything was/is a legitimate target if it would end the war sooner. Of course Dresden and the bombing of it is very contriversial but certain facts have emerged in the mean time. The industrial centre you talk of was OUTSIDE the city centre and was not targeted. Various bridges were not targeted. Basically the legitimate targets for the bombing of dresden were left largely untouched. Basically if the Nazis had done it then it would be classed a war crime. I mentioned nothing of concentration camps and did not mean to mention them. My analogy was for continued military action by the Isrealis against areas like the Gaza strip.

 

I did use the word perceived very deliberatly. I am not saying there is a threat from the syrians, Iranians or the egyptians but the isrealis may perceive there to be one.

 

As for the fox or sky news comment. I do not watch these news channels but opinions formed from them are as valid as any from the liberal agenda like the BBC or the guardian online. Which incidentally is what I watch and read.

 

Basically at the end of the day we will need to agree to disagree.

 

Oh and Jocky being that a zionist is someone who supports the jewish homeland it comes as absolutley 0 surprise that the Zionist Diaspora is fully supportive of Isreal. Oh and anti semitism is a discrimination towards jews. it matters not a jot that arabs are a semitic race as in the english language anti semitism means a discrimination against jews. The rest of it I shall not comment on as Monkey has done a pretty good job of explaining the statistics to you.

[Ke1t]

No it is not IMO. Both were perpetrated by states that felt, rightly or wrongly, they were/are involved in a total war. Anything and everything was/is a legitimate target if it would end the war sooner. Of course Dresden and the bombing of it is very contriversial but certain facts have emerged in the mean time. The industrial centre you talk of was OUTSIDE the city centre and was not targeted. Various bridges were not targeted. Basically the legitimate targets for the bombing of dresden were left largely untouched. Basically if the Nazis had done it then it would be classed a war crime. I mentioned nothing of concentration camps and did not mean to mention them. My analogy was for continued military action by the Isrealis against areas like the Gaza strip.

 

It is bizarre, you might just as well equate Coventry or London to Gaza... they bear just as little correlation to the Gaza camp.

 

The major difference being that the Allies and Axis WERE in a shooting war, where atrocities are to be expected though not justified. Israel and the Palstinians in the Gaza camp are not at war, and those Palestinians pose no threat to Israel.

 

Theresienstadt and Gaza are concentration camps, set up as model areas where the under-races can be confined, monitored and kept separate from the dominant (superior) race. The Germans felt they were Aryan and above the under-races, the Jews feel they are 'God's Chosen People' and above the Goy.

 

I just can't fathom how you can equate a concentration camp to Dresden, rather than the parallel concentration camp to concentration camp.

 

Compare Dresden to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, by all means. Compare it to Coventry or London.

 

Another, even better, analogy would be to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto.

 

But to compare it to Dresden is, to be very generous, tenuous at best.

 

 

I did use the word perceived very deliberatly. I am not saying there is a threat from the syrians, Iranians or the egyptians but the isrealis may perceive there to be one.

 

Regardless, you can't equate a perceived threat to a full blown war, not rationalise atrocities as though they were committed during an actual war when no actual state of war exists.

 

As for the fox or sky news comment. I do not watch these news channels but opinions formed from them are as valid as any from the liberal agenda like the BBC or the guardian online. Which incidentally is what I watch and read.

 

Sky I agree with, Strike that. I actually can't agree given I don't watch it in order to form an opinion regarding its objectivity, or lack of,. but FOX, no. Absolutely not. One cannot form anything like a balanced view watching that channel. There's no wiggle room on this whatsoever. The channel was set up with the express mandate to broadcast 'news' with a right wing bias. No, absolutely not.

 

Basically at the end of the day we will need to agree to disagree.

 

Oh and Jocky being that a zionist is someone who supports the jewish homeland it comes as absolutley 0 surprise that the Zionist Diaspora is fully supportive of Isreal. Oh and anti semitism is a discrimination towards jews. it matters not a jot that arabs are a semitic race as in the english language anti semitism means a discrimination against jews. The rest of it I shall not comment on as Monkey has done a pretty good job of explaining the statistics to you.

 

Those figures are in dispute, so while you may leave them on the table they are by NO means a definitive conclusion, not by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I haven't addressed those figures. so while you may think of the effort as 'pretty good' that's entirely subjective.

[bonzodaddy73]

If they happened to get nuked tomorrow, no one would give a sh*t. I actually think most of the world would be glad that these troublesome b*stards were gone.

 

I've said it before and will say it again. They are responsible for the death of Gods son.

That is reason enough to dislike them.

 

Not as in depth and articulated as the last couple of pages of this thread.

I don't like them,never will and don't need to justify my dislike.

Horrible b*stards!

[Ke1t]

If they happened to get nuked tomorrow, no one would give a sh*t. I actually think most of the world would be glad that these troublesome b*stards were gone.

 

I've said it before and will say it again. They are responsible for the death of Gods son.

That is reason enough to dislike them.

 

Not as in depth and articulated as the last couple of pages of this thread.

I don't like them,never will and don't need to justify my dislike.

Horrible b*stards!

 

You're advocating the annihilation, holocaust if you like, of the Jews based on a fictional account of some imaginary messiah's execution at their hands?

 

 

True enough you don't have to justify anything to anyone, but it's good to know who the homicidal genocidal anti-semites are.

 

Kudos.

 

If they happened to get nuked tomorrow, no one would give a sh*t.

 

I'm afraid you're speaking only for yourself there. If millions of men, women and children, regardless of colour, religion or nationality, were incinerated in a nuclear attack most people who are right in the head would be horrified.

[Coopy100]

It is bizarre, you might just as well equate Coventry or London to Gaza... they bear just as little correlation to the Gaza camp.

 

The major difference being that the Allies and Axis WERE in a shooting war, where atrocities are to be expected though not justified. Israel and the Palstinians in the Gaza camp are not at war, and those Palestinians pose no threat to Israel.

So the palastinians do not launch rockets at the isrealis?

 

 

Theresienstadt and Gaza are concentration camps, set up as model areas where the under-races can be confined, monitored and kept separate from the dominant (superior) race. The Germans felt they were Aryan and above the under-races, the Jews feel they are 'God's Chosen People' and above the Goy.

No they are not. Did the jews launch rockets at the towns surrounding the concentration camp? no they did not. That link is also very tenuos.

 

I just can't fathom how you can equate a concentration camp to Dresden, rather than the parallel concentration camp to concentration camp.

 

Compare Dresden to Hiroshima or Nagasaki, by all means. Compare it to Coventry or London.

 

Another, even better, analogy would be to compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto.

 

But to compare it to Dresden is, to be very generous, tenuous at best.

 

Regardless, you can't equate a perceived threat to a full blown war, not rationalise atrocities as though they were committed during an actual war when no actual state of war exists.

Yes you can. As you have already stated the germans posed little threat to britian by that point in time. Yet we still bombed dresden. I am not talking about the concentration camp side of things and again did the Jews launch rockets from their concentration camps? I am talking about the military attrocities comitted by the isrealis. Isreal views itself in a permanent state of war. Hence the massive army and ordinance it has stockpiled. Even if there is no threat they perceive one to be there and act. 99% of the time it is a disproportionate amount of force applied. Just like Dresden.

 

Sky I agree with, Strike that. I actually can't agree given I don't watch it in order to form an opinion regarding its objectivity, or lack of,. but FOX, no. Absolutely not. One cannot form anything like a balanced view watching that channel. There's no wiggle room on this whatsoever. The channel was set up with the express mandate to broadcast 'news' with a right wing bias. No, absolutely not.

Can't really comment on fox and didn't mean to put that in. i only meant to put in Sky. Can't say I have ever watched fox news.

 

Those figures are in dispute, so while you may leave them on the table they are by NO means a definitive conclusion, not by any stretch of the imagination. Also, I haven't addressed those figures. so while you may think of the effort as 'pretty good' that's entirely subjective.

I wasn't addressing those figures to you. I was addressing them to Jocky Balboa. Who disputes them?

[Ke1t]

So the palastinians do not launch rockets at the isrealis?

 

That's never been denied. If we're going to raise that kind of strawman argument, So Israel doesn't fire missiles in the Gaza Strip?

 

 

 

No they are not. Did the jews launch rockets at the towns surrounding the concentration camp? no they did not. That link is also very tenuos.

 

The Jews attacked and killed police, suspected collaborators, and NAZI soldiers. So, no, not rockets, but insurrection and resistance does not limit itself to rocket attacks. I also assume you've heard of the Warsaw Uprising?

 

 

Yes you can. As you have already stated the germans posed little threat to britian by that point in time. Yet we still bombed dresden. I am not talking about the concentration camp side of things and again did the Jews launch rockets from their concentration camps?

 

why reiterate a question you just asked? Are you expecting a different answer? Homemade explosives and guns were used against 'security' forces as a matter of routine.

 

I am talking about the military attrocities comitted by the isrealis. Isreal views itself in a permanent state of war. Hence the massive army and ordinance it has stockpiled. Even if there is no threat they perceive one to be there and act. 99% of the time it is a disproportionate amount of force applied. Just like Dresden.

 

There's an insurmountable difference between at war and not at war. All the 'perception' of war in the world correlates one state with the other not at all. I mean, if you're using 'perception' as a rationale then it's a very weak rationale.

[Coopy100]

That's never been denied. If we're going to raise that kind of strawman argument, So Israel doesn't fire missiles in the Gaza Strip?

Yes they do. I have never denied that.

 

The Jews attacked and killed police, suspected collaborators, and NAZI soldiers. So, no, not rockets, but insurrection and resistance does not limit itself to rocket attacks. I also assume you've heard of the Warsaw Uprising?

 

Yes I have heard of the warsaw uprising? However I fail to see what the 1944 action by the polish resistance home front army during operation tempest and the lack of action by the red army to assist has anything to do with jews or isreal. Please be more specific next time you patronising sod.

 

The warsaw Ghetto uprising is the correct term for the one which you refer to. This uprising only took place about 4 days into the Nazi liquadation of the Ghetto so again the historical parralells are tenuos unless Isreal tries to liquadate the gaza strip.

 

If you are looking for a decent historical parallel using a concentration camp then use one where armed resistance took place I would use Vilna Ghetto and Sobibor concentration camp, however since this resulted in a break out it may also be a poor parallel to draw, but who am I to give you some better paralells.

 

Your original concentartion camp of terezin had no real armed innsurection attributed to it. Auschwitz-Birkenau did so that would have made sense as did Treblinka so you could have used these instead to make your point. Terezin was a poor choice on your behalf.

 

I'm quite fond of ww2 history as it happens.

 

There's an insurmountable difference between at war and not at war. All the 'perception' of war in the world correlates one state with the other not at all. I mean, if you're using 'perception' as a rationale then it's a very weak rationale.

Why is it a weak rationale. If Isreal sees itself in a perpetual state of war then it will act accordingly. If you or I see it like different it matters not a jot.

 

I am no sympathiser of Isreal. But I do try and see things from both sides. Palestine is a territory rife with conflicts between its own political parties, or it was until fatah got wiped out and hamas started suppressing the press, dissent, music and its general path of radical islamisation and its war crimes against Isreali civilians (human rights watch) and palestinian human rights (independant commision for human rights) and summary executions (again human rights watch).See it is not just isreal that are c**ts.

 

Isreal could do with sorting oyut its sh*t as well. The economic blockade, the lack of free movement and its overly aggressive stance towards palestine would be a good start. So would tearing down its settlements and giving back Palestinian land that it has forcibly taken.

 

Anyway my shift has finished so I am off to bed. night night.

[diamondsr4ever]

Those pesky kids and their rocks.

 

So you expect them to put down their homemade rockets and AK-47's, while Israel has one of the world's strongest army, airforce, and navy as well as nuclear weapons?

 

Would Israel then offer peace if they did put down their weapons? Would they stop building so many settlements? Would they f**k.

 

you should maybe read my reply and think a bit more.

 

what difference would it make if they did call peace? they cant win, its an impossible fight, you have highlighted it all above.

 

my point is if they did do this, then they are telling the world that they are willing to have peace, that would fukk israel right up would it not?

 

Palestine cannot win this war.

[minijc]

you should maybe read my reply and think a bit more.

 

what difference would it make if they did call peace? they cant win, its an impossible fight, you have highlighted it all above.

 

my point is if they did do this, then they are telling the world that they are willing to have peace, that would fukk israel right up would it not?

 

Palestine cannot win this war.

Want to bet on this?

[diamondsr4ever]

Want to bet on this?

 

 

double the odds?

 

Ill bet you 3 donkeys and a bag of grain

[bonzodaddy73]

You're advocating the annihilation, holocaust if you like, of the Jews based on a fictional account of some imaginary messiah's execution at their hands?

 

 

True enough you don't have to justify anything to anyone, but it's good to know who the homicidal genocidal anti-semites are.

 

Kudos.

 

 

 

I'm afraid you're speaking only for yourself there. If millions of men, women and children, regardless of colour, religion or nationality, were incinerated in a nuclear attack most people who are right in the head would be horrified.

The next nuclear detonation will be in that region and the Jews will be involed in it!

 

I never once said that I would like to see them nuked. Only that they wouldn't be missed. I'm pretty sure theirs a lot of folk in the middle east with that mindset.

 

They (in Israel) are in breach of the Geneva convention and are basically sticking the fingers up and saying we will do what we want!

[Ke1t]

Yes they do. I have never denied that.

 

That was a rhetorical question. You erected a strawman argument, I threw an equally ridiculous strawman back.

 

 

 

Yes I have heard of the warsaw uprising? However I fail to see what the 1944 action by the polish resistance home front army during operation tempest and the lack of action by the red army to assist has anything to do with jews or isreal. Please be more specific next time you patronising sod.

 

I really can't be any more clear.

 

But I guess I'll try to break it down into the simplest of terminology.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto was a walled area into which undesirables (Jews) were placed in order to keep them contained, separate from the general populace (Non-Jews) and easily controlled by the ruling class... (NAZIs). The occupants were denied free movement with the outside world, and were subject to brutal, inhumane treatment, such as the denial of access to medical facilities.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto Gaza Strip was is a walled fenced area into which undesirables (Jews) were placed in order to keep them contained, separate from the general populace (Non-Jews) and easily controlled by the ruling class... (NAZIs Jews). The occupants were denied free movement with the outside world, and were subject to brutal, inhumane treatment, such as the denial of access to medical facilities.

 

 

 

The warsaw Ghetto uprising is the correct term for the one which you refer to.

 

You're seriously at the point where you're arguing insignificant semantics?

 

Jesus.

 

Fair enough, if we're at the point of pedantry, you meant to say, 'The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising' is the correct terminology for the incident to which you refer.

 

This uprising only took place about 4 days into the Nazi liquadation of the Ghetto so again the historical parralells are tenuos unless Isreal tries to liquadate the gaza strip.

 

Then I can only assume you've never read of the Intifadas in the Gaza Strip, which is an exact parallel to the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto. O

 

If you are looking for a decent historical parallel using a concentration camp then use one where armed resistance took place I would use Vilna Ghetto and Sobibor concentration camp, however since this resulted in a break out it may also be a poor parallel to draw, but who am I to give you some better paralells.

 

Well, you would have to come up with a better example in order to fill the position of 'Giving better examples'. Sobibor was a camp where the populace were guarded by and subjected to direct NAZI control, unlike Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto where civilians authorities, the PNA and the Judenrat were authorised for local governance. I also fail to see how the Vilna Ghetto is somehow a better example than the Warsaw Ghetto. Theresienstadt is a better example, given it was portrayed as a civilised, happy (isolated) Jewish community, governed by the locals with minimal interference from the NAZIs.

 

 

Your original concentartion camp of terezin had no real armed innsurection attributed to it. Auschwitz-Birkenau did so that would have made sense as did Treblinka so you could have used these instead to make your point. Terezin was a poor choice on your behalf.

 

As just pointed out, the correlation between Gaza and Theresienstadt didn't pertain to armed conflict, but rather the way in which it was portrayed by the NAZIs, as a model example of a concentration camp full of happy Jews.

 

I'm quite fond of ww2 history as it happens.

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make here, but so am I, for what it's worth.... :confused:

 

 

Why is it a weak rationale. If Isreal sees itself in a perpetual state of war then it will act accordingly. If you or I see it like different it matters not a jot.

 

It's a weak rationale because your perception that the Israeli perception of a state of war existing doesn't change the fact that no state of war actually exists, unless in the form of some abstract 'no ceasefire' which has held since the last shooting war.

 

I am no sympathiser of Isreal. But I do try and see things from both sides. Palestine is a territory rife with conflicts between its own political parties, or it was until fatah got wiped out and hamas started suppressing the press, dissent, music and its general path of radical islamisation and its war crimes against Isreali civilians (human rights watch) and palestinian human rights (independant commision for human rights) and summary executions (again human rights watch).See it is not just isreal that are c**ts.

 

It isn't the Palestinians who are forcing Palestinians into refugee camps, bulldozing their homes, denying them civil rights and humanitarian aid. There are two sides to every situation, but in this case the Israelis are by far and away the 'bad guys'. The firing of Katushas is more than negated by Israeli military action, so we can set that to a null state and take all the rest of the crap doled out by Israel towards the Palestinians absent of any 'But they fire rockets' argument.

 

 

Isreal could do with sorting oyut its sh*t as well. The economic blockade, the lack of free movement and its overly aggressive stance towards palestine would be a good start. So would tearing down its settlements and giving back Palestinian land that it has forcibly taken.

 

Anyway my shift has finished so I am off to bed. night night.

 

That's the argument we're making.

[muttondressedaslamb]

That was a rhetorical question. You erected a strawman argument, I threw an equally ridiculous strawman back.

 

 

 

 

 

I really can't be any more clear.

 

But I guess I'll try to break it down into the simplest of terminology.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto was a walled area into which undesirables (Jews) were placed in order to keep them contained, separate from the general populace (Non-Jews) and easily controlled by the ruling class... (NAZIs). The occupants were denied free movement with the outside world, and were subject to brutal, inhumane treatment, such as the denial of access to medical facilities.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto Gaza Strip was is a walled fenced area into which undesirables (Jews) were placed in order to keep them contained, separate from the general populace (Non-Jews) and easily controlled by the ruling class... (NAZIs Jews). The occupants were denied free movement with the outside world, and were subject to brutal, inhumane treatment, such as the denial of access to medical facilities.

 

 

 

 

 

You're seriously at the point where you're arguing insignificant semantics?

 

Jesus.

 

Fair enough, if we're at the point of pedantry, you meant to say, 'The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising' is the correct terminology for the incident to which you refer.

 

 

 

Then I can only assume you've never read of the Intifadas in the Gaza Strip, which is an exact parallel to the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto. O

 

 

 

Well, you would have to come up with a better example in order to fill the position of 'Giving better examples'. Sobibor was a camp where the populace were guarded by and subjected to direct NAZI control, unlike Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto where civilians authorities, the PNA and the Judenrat were authorised for local governance. I also fail to see how the Vilna Ghetto is somehow a better example than the Warsaw Ghetto. Theresienstadt is a better example, given it was portrayed as a civilised, happy (isolated) Jewish community, governed by the locals with minimal interference from the NAZIs.

 

 

 

 

As just pointed out, the correlation between Gaza and Theresienstadt didn't pertain to armed conflict, but rather the way in which it was portrayed by the NAZIs, as a model example of a concentration camp full of happy Jews.

 

 

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make here, but so am I, for what it's worth.... :confused:

 

 

 

 

It's a weak rationale because your perception that the Israeli perception of a state of war existing doesn't change the fact that no state of war actually exists, unless in the form of some abstract 'no ceasefire' which has held since the last shooting war.

 

 

 

It isn't the Palestinians who are forcing Palestinians into refugee camps, bulldozing their homes, denying them civil rights and humanitarian aid. There are two sides to every situation, but in this case the Israelis are by far and away the 'bad guys'. The firing of Katushas is more than negated by Israeli military action, so we can set that to a null state and take all the rest of the crap doled out by Israel towards the Palestinians absent of any 'But they fire rockets' argument.

 

 

 

 

That's the argument we're making.

 

The end

[Jocky Balboa]

This is an interesting topic, so I Googled a few terms, such as the Diaspora and came up with this latest link:

 

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/08/israels-malaise-prepare-for-the-next-diaspora/?show=comments

 

It reminds us that indeed Zionism only became a viable concept with the emergence of Theodor Hertzl in the 1890's (something I've pointed out on here in the past). For almost 2 Millennia prior to that, there was no such thing, despite Jews being persecuted and ultimately kicked out of, what, 53 countries since? Which really calls into question the idea that opposition to the existence of the state is anti-Semitic, for that would render most Jews pre-Hertzl as anti-Semites themselves! Interesting.

 

*for the record though, I personally do not oppose them having their own state. My reckoning is that every distinct ethnic/cultural group has the right to preserve itself. With 5000+yrs of history, they certainly fit the bill. My gripe, as always, has been that the state of play since the 1940's has given them their statehood, but denied that same right to an equally deserving people who have resided in that region for 2000yrs or more.

[Ke1t]

This is an interesting topic, so I Googled a few terms, such as the Diaspora and came up with this latest link:

 

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/08/israels-malaise-prepare-for-the-next-diaspora/?show=comments

 

It reminds us that indeed Zionism only became a viable concept with the emergence of Theodor Hertzl in the 1890's (something I've pointed out on here in the past). For almost 2 Millennia prior to that, there was no such thing, despite Jews being persecuted and ultimately kicked out of, what, 53 countries since? Which really calls into question the idea that opposition to the existence of the state is anti-Semitic, for that would render most Jews pre-Hertzl as anti-Semites themselves! Interesting.

 

*for the record though, I personally do not oppose them having their own state. My reckoning is that every distinct ethnic/cultural group has the right to preserve itself. With 5000+yrs of history, they certainly fit the bill. My gripe, as always, has been that the state of play since the 1940's has given them their statehood, but denied that same right to an equally deserving people who have resided in that region for 2000yrs or more.

 

 

Madness to place the Jewish state right next to the Arab states. By all means have a Jewish state, but put it in Canada... f**k me, Baffin Island is just sitting there doing nothing. Can you imagine how much less tension there would be in the world if the only demographics around for the Israelis to murder and oppress were Walruses and Polar Bears?

[Jocky Balboa]

Madness to place the Jewish state right next to the Arab states. By all means have a Jewish state, but put it in Canada... f**k me, Baffin Island is just sitting there doing nothing. Can you imagine how much less tension there would be in the world if the only demographics around for the Israelis to murder and oppress were Walruses and Polar Bears?

 

Birobidzhan.

[Bebo]

Madness to place the Jewish state right next to the Arab states. By all means have a Jewish state, but put it in Canada... f**k me, Baffin Island is just sitting there doing nothing. Can you imagine how much less tension there would be in the world if the only demographics around for the Israelis to murder and oppress were Walruses and Polar Bears?

 

Yeah but God promised them that land and everyone knows that when the Jews are back in the homeland, the Rapture is not that far away and the 2nd coming of Jesus will be just around the corner.

 

But seriously, isn't it a bit fucked that this is why the fundamentalist christians (and those in actual charge of the foreign policy) in America believe and support Israel for purely this reason? Nutters.

[muttondressedaslamb]

Yeah but God promised them that land and everyone knows that when the Jews are back in the homeland, the Rapture is not that far away and the 2nd coming of Jesus will be just around the corner.

 

But seriously, isn't it a bit f**ked that this is why the fundamentalist christians (and those in actual charge of the foreign policy) in America believe and support Israel for purely this reason? Nutters.

 

I think you'll find that it's mainly the Jews from the AIPAC that are in charge

[muttondressedaslamb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Israel_Lobby_and_U.S._Foreign_Policy

 

Good read!

[Bebo]

I think you'll find that it's mainly the Jews from the AIPAC that are in charge

 

AIPAC are a huge, powerful and influential force on American foreign policy, but they're not the guys behind the wizard's curtain.

 

I should note that i f*cking hate AIPAC.

[Coopy100]

 

I really can't be any more clear.

 

But I guess I'll try to break it down into the simplest of terminology.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto was a walled area into which undesirables (Jews) were placed in order to keep them contained, separate from the general populace (Non-Jews) and easily controlled by the ruling class... (NAZIs). The occupants were denied free movement with the outside world, and were subject to brutal, inhumane treatment, such as the denial of access to medical facilities.

 

The Warsaw Ghetto Gaza Strip was is a walled fenced area into which undesirables (Jews) were placed in order to keep them contained, separate from the general populace (Non-Jews) and easily controlled by the ruling class... (NAZIs Jews). The occupants were denied free movement with the outside world, and were subject to brutal, inhumane treatment, such as the denial of access to medical facilities.

 

 

 

 

 

You're seriously at the point where you're arguing insignificant semantics?

 

Jesus.

 

Fair enough, if we're at the point of pedantry, you meant to say, 'The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising' is the correct terminology for the incident to which you refer.

 

 

 

Then I can only assume you've never read of the Intifadas in the Gaza Strip, which is an exact parallel to the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto. O

 

 

 

Well, you would have to come up with a better example in order to fill the position of 'Giving better examples'. Sobibor was a camp where the populace were guarded by and subjected to direct NAZI control, unlike Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto where civilians authorities, the PNA and the Judenrat were authorised for local governance. I also fail to see how the Vilna Ghetto is somehow a better example than the Warsaw Ghetto. Theresienstadt is a better example, given it was portrayed as a civilised, happy (isolated) Jewish community, governed by the locals with minimal interference from the NAZIs.

 

 

 

 

As just pointed out, the correlation between Gaza and Theresienstadt didn't pertain to armed conflict, but rather the way in which it was portrayed by the NAZIs, as a model example of a concentration camp full of happy Jews.

 

 

 

Not sure what point you're trying to make here, but so am I, for what it's worth.... :confused:

 

 

 

 

It's a weak rationale because your perception that the Israeli perception of a state of war existing doesn't change the fact that no state of war actually exists, unless in the form of some abstract 'no ceasefire' which has held since the last shooting war.

 

 

 

It isn't the Palestinians who are forcing Palestinians into refugee camps, bulldozing their homes, denying them civil rights and humanitarian aid. There are two sides to every situation, but in this case the Israelis are by far and away the 'bad guys'. The firing of Katushas is more than negated by Israeli military action, so we can set that to a null state and take all the rest of the crap doled out by Israel towards the Palestinians absent of any 'But they fire rockets' argument.

 

 

 

 

That's the argument we're making.

Kelt it would appear that we are comparing apples and oranges.

 

I was under the impression that you were talking about armed insurection and acts of violence during this exchange of views, as I was, rather than the socio-political build of the camps hence my use of sobibor and the vilnus ghetto as better examples than the warsaw ghetto or terezin. My pedantic use of the Warsaw Uprising was due to the fact that I felt your post was somewhat patronising when you asked about the warsaw ghetto which i have heard of and do know about so thought I would be somewhat patronising back.

 

Intifadas which one 1 or 2? The first was started by a traffic accident and the second was an arguement over housing allowed in the oslo accords. It wasn't an attempt to liquadate the gaza strip that caused these like the warsaw ghetto uprising.

 

The rest of it we could go on typing about and nothing will change. I still don't think it is a weak ratioanle you do. Lets leave it at that.

 

Oh and I thought it was Qassam rockets and not katyushas they fired at isreal.

 

 

P.S. (this is not aimed at you kelt) I'm surprised no one has mentioned Isreal firing phosphorus shells into palestine as a reason to dislike the Isrealis.

[Ke1t]

Kelt it would appear that we are comparing apples and oranges.

 

I was under the impression that you were talking about armed insurection and acts of violence during this exchange of views, as I was, rather than the socio-political build of the camps hence my use of sobibor and the vilnus ghetto as better examples than the warsaw ghetto or terezin. My pedantic use of the Warsaw Uprising was due to the fact that I felt your post was somewhat patronising when you asked about the warsaw ghetto which i have heard of and do know about so thought I would be somewhat patronising back.

 

The violence is an effect of being hemmed in and mistreated. The violence wasn't my main point, rather the concentration of souls in a disproportionately small area, and suffering at the hands of an oppressive, hostile group... be that British, NAZIs or Israelis.

 

Intifadas which one 1 or 2? The first was started by a traffic accident and the second was an arguement over housing allowed in the oslo accords. It wasn't an attempt to liquadate the gaza strip that caused these like the warsaw ghetto uprising.

 

I think the reasons for the inhabitants of a camp rising up will vary from camp to camp. Could be a black guy getting beaten on camera then starting off a serious of riots.... could be one too many people going into the 'showers'. The grievance that acts as the catalyst isn't particularly important, so much as the reason for that grievance being a catalyst.

 

 

 

Oh and I thought it was Qassam rockets and not katyushas they fired at isreal.

 

Qassam is the generic term for the rockets.... like how people call a Public Address System a Tannoy. There are various kinds of rockets, Katyusha being one kind of rocket, there are various kinds of Public Address System, Tannoy being one kind of Public Address System.

 

[Jocky Balboa]

P.S. (this is not aimed at you kelt) I'm surprised no one has mentioned Isreal firing phosphorus shells into palestine as a reason to dislike the Isrealis.

 

I mentioned this in previous threads. I was in Egypt at the time this was going on and saw it for myself, through live TV etc. I remember a member of Amnesty International at the time, a former Brigadier General in the British Army, confirmed the illegality of those awful weapons and their use on women and children. What I saw was an affront to humanity, something that will never leave me.

 

As someone who loathes all organised religions (be that Xtianity, Judaism or Islam) I have no personal stake in Middle Eastern politics and/or prophecies. All I know is, there are great injustices being committed in the name of religion. The fact that they are (at least in Israel's case) being committed with the moral, financial and military support, of our governments and with our taxes, makes it all the more contemptible.

[Jocky Balboa]

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/08/political-violence-part-2-violence-by-the-right-the-medias-timothy-mcveigh-paradigm/

 

Interesting link I found, which relates to the far-right in Israel and it's being hell-bent on destroying the peace process.

[Coopy100]

The violence is an effect of being hemmed in and mistreated. The violence wasn't my main point, rather the concentration of souls in a disproportionately small area, and suffering at the hands of an oppressive, hostile group... be that British, NAZIs or Israelis.

I am not disputing that point. Any situation where you have a large number of souls in a hostile area will be ripe for violence. As I said I was looking at it from a different viewpoint to you concentrating exclusivly on the violence.

I think the reasons for the inhabitants of a camp rising up will vary from camp to camp. Could be a black guy getting beaten on camera then starting off a serious of riots.... could be one too many people going into the 'showers'. The grievance that acts as the catalyst isn't particularly important, so much as the reason for that grievance being a catalyst.

Again a fair comment but I personally feel a difference between the two events but again could argue our points endlessly about it.

 

 

Qassam is the generic term for the rockets.... like how people call a Public Address System a Tannoy. There are various kinds of rockets, Katyusha being one kind of rocket, there are various kinds of Public Address System, Tannoy being one kind of Public Address System.

I am sure that a qassam is a certain type of rocket made by the qassam brigades but it is reported in the press using qassam as a genric term. much like tannoy or hoover are used as generic terms. Anyway thats semantics.

 

 

 

As for the phosphorus shells. I don't think any one can defend their use in a built up area populated by civilians, much like cluster bombs. An indiscriminate area will be covered with metal burning as hot as the sun and any non coms in the area it explodes in will be covered in the sh*t as much as any militants.

[Jocky Balboa]

Have any of you watched Louis Theroux's episode on "Ultra Zionists"? Christ, the arrogance of these b*stards is unbelievable... the closing remark from one shylock said it all: "there's nothing the rest of the world can do about it!"

 

Making a complete mockery of International Law since 1967 (though arguably since their inception in 1948 or before) with the help of our ruling elites and taxes. No wonder the Camel Jockeys hate us...

[vanderark14]

Have any of you watched Louis Theroux's episode on "Ultra Zionists"? Christ, the arrogance of these b*stards is unbelievable... the closing remark from one shylock said it all: "there's nothing the rest of the world can do about it!"

 

Making a complete mockery of International Law since 1967 (though arguably since their inception in 1948 or before) with the help of our ruling elites and taxes. No wonder the Camel Jockeys hate us...

 

I watched it and couldn't believe what I was hearing.

[Big Man]

This is of material relevance to the debate (and its happening in our own back gairden):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14614771

[Bebo]

This is of material relevance to the debate (and its happening in our own back gairden):

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14614771

 

Paul noticed that I had a flag, at which point he said Israel was a terrorist state and the flag was a terrorist symbol.

 

"They both then unbuttoned their trousers.

 

"Paul put his hands down his pants, pulled off a pubic hair and rubbed it over my flag. Sam did the same thing.

 

"Sam started urinating in my sink. He asked me if I wanted him to jump on me. I said no, but he did it anyway."

 

[King Street Loon]

Theres an affa lot if Jews with curly fries hairdoos down here in Manchester.