"hillsborough Files To Be Released"

[Poodler]

Suing the dibble for £20M will help the grieving process though

[King Street Loon]

Suing the dibble for £20M will help the grieving process though

It'll keep them in the latest Lonsdale trainers

[Chewie37]

Did everyone see the BBC documentary that was on? A few very interesting facts brought up on there. A big thing to take from it all is how the media can spin things

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bgnkn

[dazzy_deff]

Thought it was a great documentary - pretty harrowing to watch.

 

Think its pretty conclusive now that if the police had closed the central pens prior to opening the Exit gate, none of this would ever have happened. Also, the decision to erect spiked fences each side of the central pens was absurd. As the professor guy said - normally at concerts, sports events etc, if there is a crush, you naturally move to the sides and "find your place". WIth this fences, there was nowhere to go.

 

10 minutes in I was in disbelief at the fuck ups by the police.

 

If David Duckinfield has owned up from the start, I'd have felt some pity for him - in out of his depth, 3 weeks before the game through no fault of his own. The fact he told blatant lies for so many years means i hope he gets the book thrown at him and serves jail time. Hopefully in a Liverpool jail.

[The Boofon]

Thought it was a great documentary - pretty harrowing to watch.

 

Think its pretty conclusive now that if the police had closed the central pens prior to opening the Exit gate, none of this would ever have happened. Also, the decision to erect spiked fences each side of the central pens was absurd. As the professor guy said - normally at concerts, sports events etc, if there is a crush, you naturally move to the sides and "find your place". WIth this fences, there was nowhere to go.

 

10 minutes in I was in disbelief at the fuck ups by the police.

 

If David Duckinfield has owned up from the start, I'd have felt some pity for him - in out of his depth, 3 weeks before the game through no fault of his own. The fact he told blatant lies for so many years means i hope he gets the book thrown at him and serves jail time. Hopefully in a Liverpool jail.

 

 

Quite ironic.

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/merseyside-prisons-overcrowded-400-inmates-8747447

[dazzy_deff]

 

 

Quite ironic.

 

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/merseyside-prisons-overcrowded-400-inmates-8747447

LOL - i did chuckle.

[E-P-K]

Did everyone see the BBC documentary that was on? A few very interesting facts brought up on there. A big thing to take from it all is how the media can spin things

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07bgnkn

 

 

And you have just figured this out ?

[Tommy]

is it not at the point for a lot of people, that this is getting boring now?

Totally agree, Duckenfield and all other lying cops will wish it just died a death.

[Chewie37]

And you have just figured this out ?

Not really, no, but plenty of people wouldn't know how bad until they see something like that

[The Boofon]

Just watching it at the moment.

 

Why was a verdict of unlawful killing given?

 

All manner of fuck ups but doesn't seem like anything was deliberate.

 

Terrible cover up of mistakes but nothing to indicate that they knew their actions would have resulted in death.

 

Strange one.

[tup]

Stop sticking up for your fellow freemasons.

 

You're obliged to do that I know, but you're flying in the face of huge evidence to the contrary.

 

Hang them out to dry and see if you get blackballed.

[daytripping]

Vomit inducing, people trying to outscore each other in the who felt the most grief stakes. They have very short memories, beat Celtic down there in the 80's and it was a blood bath outside, a hail of bottles and bricks with women and kids often being the victims, greatest fans in the World my arse. Scousers and the tims should merge, victim fc.

 

http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/9288675/1/

[The Boofon]

Stop sticking up for your fellow freemasons.

 

You're obliged to do that I know, but you're flying in the face of huge evidence to the contrary.

 

Hang them out to dry and see if you get blackballed.

Not in the slightest.

 

Police guilty of cover ups and fuck ups here but not unlawfully killing people.

[Tommy]

Not in the slightest.

Police guilty of cover ups and fuck ups here but not unlawfully killing people.

Totally agree.

[tup]

I'm never one for defending the police.

 

They think nothing of covering up crimes including murder if it involves a brother.

 

They are not fit for purpose. Good cops dinna exist.

[dazzy_deff]

Just watching it at the moment.

 

Why was a verdict of unlawful killing given?

 

All manner of fuck ups but doesn't seem like anything was deliberate.

 

Terrible cover up of mistakes but nothing to indicate that they knew their actions would have resulted in death.

 

Strange one.

I'm guessing it's due to the fact that through negligence it could possibly result in a manslaughter conviction. Therefore if somebody is convicted of manslaughter surely it follows that the deaths were unlawful.

[The Boofon]

I'm guessing it's due to the fact that through negligence it could possibly result in a manslaughter conviction. Therefore if somebody is convicted of manslaughter surely it follows that the deaths were unlawful.

Not sure where negligence plays a part here either.

 

The gate was opened to save lives not take them.

[dazzy_deff]

Not sure where negligence plays a part here either.

 

The gate was opened to save lives not take them.

Negligent not to close the central pen off before opening the gate. Negligent not to have better crowd control to guide people to the side pens rather than the central pens which were already full.

[360]

Not sure where negligence plays a part here either.

 

The gate was opened to save lives not take them.

 

Not before they closed off the central pen... due to negligence.

[The Boofon]

Negligent not to close the central pen off before opening the gate. Negligent not to have better crowd control to guide people to the side pens rather than the central pens which were already full.

You could argue the central pen only became over crowded after the gate opened.

 

Poor signage rather than poor stewarding/policing.

 

No unlawful killing there in my opinion.

[dazzy_deff]

You could argue the central pen only became over crowded after the gate opened.

 

Poor signage rather than poor stewarding/policing.

 

No unlawful killing there in my opinion.

But it was already over crowded prior to the gate opening. The documentary confirmed this courtesy of cctv and television footage. If you watched it you would know this.

 

Wouldn't say poor signage, just a natural flow to go to the central pens. Which if it was closed or blocked by police, wouldn't have happened.

 

I Ken you're just playing devils advocate here but I'm up for a debate.

[The Boofon]

But it was already over crowded prior to the gate opening. The documentary confirmed this courtesy of cctv and television footage. If you watched it you would know this.

 

Wouldn't say poor signage, just a natural flow to go to the central pens. Which if it was closed or blocked by police, wouldn't have happened.

 

I Ken you're just playing devils advocate here but I'm up for a debate.

I just don't see how you can (not you personally) pin an unlawful killing charge on anyone.

 

What I did find kind of weird is on the documentary there were several shots of the central pen and on some occasions there looked to be space for folk moving.

 

I still don't get why fans kept coming in even when it was so jammed.

 

Didn't they not shut the gate because it was the only way in/out because of the side fences blocking other exit routes?

 

There should be criminal proceedings for the cover up. Perverting the course of justice etc. but the unlawful killing verdict stinks.

[Chewie37]

Not in the slightest.

Police guilty of cover ups and fuck ups here but not unlawfully killing people.

The unlawful killing is linked to all the factors, including the delay in declaring a major incident. There's a part in the documentary where they reveal that a large percentage of the fatalities could've been avoided with the correct medical attention. There's also the piece about the previous cup match where the Sheffield chairman refused to believe that fans were in danger of death in their stadium.

All the mistakes that lead to deaths would add up to unlawful killing due to the fact the jobs of the organisers failed miserably to keep fans safe.

 

The cover up was basically the police trying to divert any blame from themselves, protecting an inexperienced officer in charge and themselves for putting him in that position.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Interesting comment from the boy towards the end which I think goes to the heart of the debate here. He (the professor guy, a fan I think, and member of the independent panel that overturned the inquiry findings which were corrupted and basically bounced it back to the original Taylor Report findings) said "I was aware that there was the possibility that fans could be adjudged responsible for the unlawful killings." I think it was question 7 put to the jury re the fans culpability and crucially it came after question 6, were the deaths an act of unlawful killing? I can't recall his exact words but hopefully the meaning of what he said is reflected. Most importantly he went on to say (something like) "think about it, the fans could be adjudged responsible for the unlawful killings, that would be the worst possible result."

 

Why?

 

Why was that the worst possible result? The result we all looked for was who was responsible for the deaths surely, regardless of who it was. I think we all agree, certainly after the documentary, that the majority of the blame lies with the senior police offiicers for the abject failure of management to prepare carry out and react to a suitable plan for the event in question. Obviously the follow-on actions speak for themselves and are certainly unforgiveable. But why would the fans even partly being responsible be "the worst possible result?" I think from what he said, from the emphasis he gave it, the the clue lies in the unlawful (as opposed to accidental) bit and emphasised the unlawful element as opposed to the fatalities. Apart from misdemenours common at every game at that time - a bit of alcohol, touting, a wee bit of gate jumping etc - there are no obvious unlawful actions that lead to the conclusion that the fans were responsible for the unlawful element of the deaths. None whatsoever and on balance I've no argument with that. But I wonder is it fair to say that it is that conclusion that has been expanded, whether deliberately or otherwise, to say Ah well in that case they were not responsible in any way shape or form for the fact that people died?

 

The 96 clearly aren't responsible, Jesus no. Those stuck in the pens, especially at the front, also not. Even those, as others have said, coming in from the back, especially the surge on opening the gate and seeing no other option but to go down the fateful tunnel were just being fans. You can't even say its Liverpool fans (or any other club) in particular. This was a terrible event waiting to happen when you see those stadium designs. The Liverpool fans just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time to some extent. All of this is perfectly fine. But watching the coverage there are still clearly those in the pen prior to the worst of the crush happening still determined to do the whole terracing sway thing where the people are shifting 10 rows back and forward.

 

I do not care what anyone says and it is certainly easy for me to preach with the benefit of hindsight. I am not saying they set out to kill anyone. But what some were doing was still fucking dangerous. Its the reason we have no terraces now, and certainly those damnable pens 30 years later. To see those particular actions - yes common at most grounds of the day - and to still hear a collective claim that they weren't in any way responsible for the deaths (not the unlawful killings, just the simple, horrible fact that people died) still troubles me.

 

It is one of those situations where he's made almost a throwaway comment, and I end up screaming follow up questions at the tele.

[Chewie37]

I took it to mean that he thought that the fans being partly to blame for the unlawful killings was going to be the worst case scenario. The fact that unlawful killings were to be declared was a success for their campaign? If the fans weren't doing things that were normal and expected, then surely they couldn't be judged to be responsible?

[zander]

Vomit inducing, people trying to outscore each other in the who felt the most grief stakes. They have very short memories, beat Celtic down there in the 80's and it was a blood bath outside, a hail of bottles and bricks with women and kids often being the victims, greatest fans in the World my arse. Scousers and the tims should merge, victim fc.

 

http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/9288675/1/

Its like a who's the bigger grief merchant competition between the two of them. I saw some tim comment on facebook about old Norman's funeral cortege passing Pittodrie. He suggested to his mate that they stand outside Pittodrie with their Celtic tops on to pay their respects. Fair play paying respects but what the fuck does Celtic or any other teams tops have to do with anything. Just one big look at me I'm a grief merchant.

 

The scouse cunt above has probably never worked a day in his life using Hillsborough as a case to claim DSS for depression.

[Chewie37]

Its like a who's the bigger grief merchant competition between the two of them. I saw some tim comment on facebook about old Norman's funeral cortege passing Pittodrie. He suggested to his mate that they stand outside Pittodrie with their Celtic tops on to pay their respects. Fair play paying respects but what the fuck does Celtic or any other teams tops have to do with anything. Just one big look at me I'm a grief merchant.

The scouse cunt above has probably never worked a day in his life using Hillsborough as a case to claim DSS for depression.

Personally I think modern society has turned that way. For instance the outpouring of public grief when a celebrity dies, it just seems to be a constant competition to see who cares the most. The Facebook/Twitter explosions when someone dies just irritates me no end. That and people writing, 'thinking of you' or similar on a public wall/post, unbelievable.......

 

I digress.......

[King Street Loon]

Its like a who's the bigger grief merchant competition between the two of them. I saw some tim comment on facebook about old Norman's funeral cortege passing Pittodrie. He suggested to his mate that they stand outside Pittodrie with their Celtic tops on to pay their respects. Fair play paying respects but what the fuck does Celtic or any other teams tops have to do with anything. Just one big look at me I'm a grief merchant.

 

The scouse cunt above has probably never worked a day in his life using Hillsborough as a case to claim DSS for depression.

Bridge of Don Bhoys??

I know one of them and whilst he's a good guy and what they did on Sunday was unexpected but nice they're is absolutely no need for the suggestion above.

No medals handed out for grief mongering.

[Poodler]

^ another competition we would be papped out of in the early stages

[Dynamo]

31 years today since the Valley Parade fire.