"hillsborough Files To Be Released"

[strachanmcgheegoal]

That's fine TutanK I'm in perfect agreement with all of that, but does it leave the fans completely admonished of any responsibility whatsoever as is being portrayed. That's my question.

[Old Wing Stand]

It actually was terrace warfare in those days, scousers being amongst the worst, it no doubt contributed to the way the police acted regarding football crowds. IMO shit happens, a lot of things went wrong from as I said stadium design, police making split second decisions under duress, pissed up ticketless fans, locking up an old retired copper won't bring anyone back, the legacy of those who died is safer stadia Worldwide, it should be left at that.

 

As someone said this will now boil down to hard cash and lawsuits against the police, what many would have really been after.

 

BTW Holding the inquiry 20 odd miles down the road from Liverpool was never ever going to allow a fair process to occur, it should have been held in London or Scotland, getting an impartial jury no doubt under severe pressure to bring the right verdict would have been almost impossible in Warrington.

Was thinking the same about the location of the inquiry far to near Liverpool to have an impartial jury

[daytripping]

The police aren't supposed to 'win' they're just supposed to do their job properly. If they had opened the gate AND shut the tunnel to the central pens the game would have probably passed without incident. And it's unbelievable that they didn't delay KO.

 

Also they didn't have to systematically lie for a quarter of a century about what happened, thereby criminally compounding their original incompetence.

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

I hate societies blame culture, where there's a incident someone must be brought to justice so we can get money from them, as I said shit happens, we learnt from it and now have safer stadiums, takes a disaster to learn a lesson and move on. Unfortunate for those too weak to fight the crowd they had to pay a heavy price.

[daytripping]

Was thinking the same about the location of the inquiry far to near Liverpool to have an impartial jury

 

Can you imagine being a juror and coming back with a fans guilty verdict, they would have had to emigrate.

[Dusk( 2 Stars )Don]

Hopefully when all is said and done we look to heysel and ...........

[The Boofon]

Who let them in?

Oh well no blame what so ever for the fans because they never opened the gate.

[Dusk( 2 Stars )Don]

Oh well no blame what so ever for the fans because they never opened the gate.

sad but true ,this is it

[Dusk( 2 Stars )Don]

one always thinks of a situation like that at pittodrie ? crush them mother fuckers in the away end and don't come back you scum fucks cock suckers #

[Dusk( 2 Stars )Don]

sorry that just came out

[daytripping]

one always thinks of a situation like that at pittodrie ? crush them mother fuckers in the away end and don't come back you scum fucks cock suckers #

 

It almost happened at Pittodrie, Scotland v England U21 game, crush outside was unbelievable, police opened the gates to relieve the crush, I was around 13, loads getting passed over the beach end wall before that, utter carnage, must have been 35k in by kick off time. Didn't think anything of it at the time, got in free and they fucked up by making it cash gates only, as I said, shit happens, don't recall it being that bad again, we probably made it ticket only after that for big games.

 

I still slept that night despite my near death experience, was just part of growing up, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I didn't bleat for an enquiry or look for compensation, was just glad the police opened the door. If we'd died inside I would never have blamed the police, split second decision, they got it right that night but it could have went wrong.

[BWG]

My grandfather claimed that he'd seen Pittodrie hold 60,000 although official numbers were reported as considerably lower. Even if it was all standing I can't imagine how horrendous it must've been going to football back then. Folk pishing in your pocket and getting attacked at half time as you swapped ends and to top it all off the very real possibility you could be crushed to death.

[Old Wing Stand]

My grandfather claimed that he'd seen Pittodrie hold 60,000 although official numbers were reported as considerably lower. Even if it was all standing I can't imagine how horrendous it must've been going to football back then. Folk pishing in your pocket and getting attacked at half time as you swapped ends and to top it all off the very real possibility you could be crushed to death.

I remember the changing ends at half time when I was a teenager some good tear ups then

Pishing on the terraces or into a beer can was common place, I remember a league cup final at Hampden between us and Celtic fans from both teams pishing in crisp bags and launching them over the fence !

[RTYD]

My grandfather claimed that he'd seen Pittodrie hold 60,000 although official numbers were reported as considerably lower. Even if it was all standing I can't imagine how horrendous it must've been going to football back then. Folk pishing in your pocket and getting attacked at half time as you swapped ends and to top it all off the very real possibility you could be crushed to death.

I was there in 1967 when we replayed Hibs in the Scottish cup. Can't say I have much memory of concerns over crowding.

[beer gut]

Predictable verdict, no Jury in England was ever going to say otherwise but the fact of the matter was fan behaviour caused this, the police had no way of predicting this would happen and were fearful that fans outside were going to die, damned if you do..........

 

If ticketless fans had not tried to get in this wouldn't have happened.

 

The merseyside grief brigade are the only winners in this sorry saga, it should have been put to bed many years ago. Perhaps now they can move on and campaign for justice for the Juventus fans.

How you can read up on the facts and apportion blame to the fans is beyond me like.

 

The EXIT gate was opened at Duckenfields request because he was fucking useless. Hes the one that started the rumour of ticket less pissed up fans breaking through the gate to cover his own arse. . He in fact ORDERED the exit gate to be opened. Once the exit gate was opened the fans automatically funnelled into the 2 central pens behind the goal because that was the natural route to take. That should not have been able to happen. The central pens route should have been shut off before the Exit gate was opened to let the fans outside the ground in. That is the root cause of the disaster. Of the 96 people who died, 30 were still outside the turnstiles at 2.52pm. They went in through exit gate C when invited by police, and were crushed in the central pens barely 10 minutes later. Duckenfield was put in charge of the semi final Just 19 days before the match. He had no experience and wasn’t familiar with the stadium and admitted that he didn’t swat up on the relevant paperwork, including the force’s major incident procedure, and signed off the operational plan two days after taking over, before he had even visited the ground. The police fucked up then tried to cover it up. End of story.

[DelMonte]

How you can read up on the facts and apportion blame to the fans is beyond me like.

 

The EXIT gate was opened at Duckenfields request because he was fucking useless. Hes the one that started the rumour of ticket less pissed up fans breaking through the gate to cover his own arse. . He in fact ORDERED the exit gate to be opened. Once the exit gate was opened the fans automatically funnelled into the 2 central pens behind the goal because that was the natural route to take. That should not have been able to happen. The central pens route should have been shut off before the Exit gate was opened to let the fans outside the ground in. That is the root cause of the disaster. Of the 96 people who died, 30 were still outside the turnstiles at 2.52pm. They went in through exit gate C when invited by police, and were crushed in the central pens barely 10 minutes later. Duckenfield was put in charge of the semi final Just 19 days before the match. He had no experience and wasnt familiar with the stadium and admitted that he didnt swat up on the relevant paperwork, including the forces major incident procedure, and signed off the operational plan two days after taking over, before he had even visited the ground. The police fucked up then tried to cover it up. End of story.

Exactly this. Amazed at some people's opinions on here when the facts are laid down in front of them.

[BWG]

Aye it's fairy open and shut. A grossly under-qualified person was fast-tracked into a position he wasn't ready for due to internal politics within the police. He shit the bed on the day, made decisions which directly led to the deaths of 96 people and then tried to lie his way out of it.

[strachanmcgheegoal]

Happy to agree with all of that. One question. In the CCTV video, the facts as you put it, why are there supporters already on top of the turnstyle wall when the gate is opened? Druckenfield, the drastically under qualified, inexperienced, incompetent and devious (as it transpired) head copper didn't make his fateful decision to open the gate out of spite. Regrettably I think he probably made it in an attempt to justify his decision to make the game start on time probably in an insular attempt to further progress his image and ultimately his career.

 

And that's not to say the police and Hillsborough design did not play the critical role in creating the crush outside either, they most certainly did. But a crush there was!

[beer gut]

 

Most of these myths were shot down in the taylor report all those years ago. the fact the police werent held to account is back then is a joke. theres an article on todays bbc about some of myths.

 

Myth 1: Liverpool fans arrived 'late and without tickets'

After the disaster, allegations emerged from "unnamed sources" - later established to be a Police Federation spokesman and the Sheffield Conservative MP, Irvine Patnick - claiming Liverpool supporters had "deliberately arrived late determined to force entry" to the ground.

What we know: The claim formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [sYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police.

While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, the inquest was told evidence suggested it was actually the "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush.

The jury heard evidence from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off.

The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground.

Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans arriving at Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan".

He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.

He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".

The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.

What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

[Tommy]

So for that particular game, the common practice of turning up without a ticket and forcing entry was abandoned.

The arrangements in place were a shambles and it's ridiculous that it has taken 27 years to determine that.

[The Boofon]

So for that particular game, the common practice of turning up without a ticket and forcing entry was abandoned.

The arrangements in place were a shambles and it's ridiculous that it has taken 27 years to determine that.

 

 

 

It would appear so.

 

None of the fans were drunk either which is quite incredible given it was a 3pm kick off on a Saturday.

 

Beer Gut we know it was a cover up and there were horrendous fuck ups but to completely dismiss fans playing any part in this is absurd.

 

Opening the gates, piss poor planning etc. all the major contributing factors but it would not have happened if (and I'm making no apologies for saying this) pissed up and sober fans without a ticket to get into the match didn't enter the ground.

 

No amount of deflection will change this.

[beer gut]

 

It would appear so.

 

None of the fans were drunk either which is quite incredible given it was a 3pm kick off on a Saturday.

 

Beer Gut we know it was a cover up and there were horrendous fuck ups but to completely dismiss fans playing any part in this is absurd.

 

Opening the gates, piss poor planning etc. all the major contributing factors but it would not have happened if (and I'm making no apologies for saying this) pissed up and sober fans without a ticket to get into the match didn't enter the ground.

 

No amount of deflection will change this.

bollocks. there is no evidence that large numbers of fans didnt have tickets or were pissed. you are just repeating the lie the police put out at the start. yes some were drunk. yes some probably didnt have tickets. the same could be said for the forest fans but why wast there a crush at their end of the ground?

[The Boofon]

bollocks. there is no evidence that large numbers of fans didnt have tickets or were pissed. you are just repeating the lie the police put out at the start. yes some were drunk. yes some probably didnt have tickets. the same could be said for the forest fans but why wast there a crush at their end of the ground?

 

 

Other than the fact that end of the ground was grossly over capacity.

 

If they all had tickets there wouldn't have been such a crush.

 

I suspect there wasn't a crush at the Forest end as they didn't have the exit gates opened.

 

Not trying to defend the actions of the police in any way. What they did was a monumental fuck up but the fans played a part in it albiet an unwitting part.

[Pash]

 

 

Other than the fact that end of the ground was grossly over capacity.

 

If they all had tickets there wouldn't have been such a crush.

 

I suspect there wasn't a crush at the Forest end as they didn't have the exit gates opened.

 

Not trying to defend the actions of the police in any way. What they did was a monumental fuck up but the fans played a part in it albiet an unwitting part.

 

There was plenty room in the other pens numb nuts, lack of crowd control meant they all went in the central one.

[The Boofon]

 

There was plenty room in the other pens numb nuts, lack of crowd control meant they all went in the central one.

 

 

Mmm. The videos of that day would suggest all the pens were at capacity. The central one the one causing the problem.

 

It was human nature that the fans would all go in once the gates were open. Not blaming them for doing so but to say it was 100% the police and organisers fault is ridiculous.

[Tommy]

There were large spaces on the corner flag side

where those arriving late should have been directed to.

Sadly they went to the nearest entry point.

[The Boofon]

There were large spaces on the corner flag side

where those arriving late should have been directed to.

Sadly they went to the nearest entry point.

 

 

Fair enough. I retract the "all sections full" comment and apologise profoundly.

 

Still not backing down that fans played a part in this disaster.

[Tommy]

Fair enough. I retract the "all sections full" comment and apologise profoundly.

 

Still not backing down that fans played a part in this disaster.

I've been at games where all hell has let loose close to

turnstyles and in the ground and all you are thinking about

is getting a place to see the game. You don't have any concerns

about fan safety.

There were so many things that day where people will ask themself

If Only.

[RUL]

Looking at the video it is difficult to see where else they could have gone but what caused the incident was the police deciding to open the gates and the swell of people going straight down the middle due to police errors.

 

Human nature is to look after themselves, there would have been people with tickets worrying about not getting in, we've probably all been on trains packed to capacity and the train arrives at another stop and people force their way on.

[beer gut]

a lot of the fans proably didn't know which way to go. there were no signs or anyone giving directions. it was probably their 1st time at the ground. its human nature to follow the crowd if you are usure where to go. the fans were being fans. thats their only part in the disaster. they were let down by those in charge big time.

[The Boofon]

a lot of the fans proably didn't know which way to go. there were no signs or anyone giving directions. it was probably their 1st time at the ground. its human nature to follow the crowd if you are usure where to go. the fans were being fans. thats their only part in the disaster. they were let down by those in charge big time.

 

Correct.