Roswell 1947

[Crossbow]

I'm pretty sure E=MC2 is a confirmed equation

 

But, again, you're just thinking "Let's go really, really fast in a conventional sense" which would involve travelling in regular Space/Time using, theoretically, great big chemical rockets.

 

If that's the means by which we attempt to get to the stars, then it's going to take a loooong time to reach even the closest solar system.

 

It's now theorised that there are 11 dimensions in time and space, not 3 (or 4 if you count time). I'm no physicist, but apparently a whole bunch of near impossible mathematical problems suddenly vanish if 11 dimensions are factored into the equation.

 

E=MC2 works based on understanding of a three (4 if you count time) dimensional world.

 

 

 

There's a crazy conspiracy maze covering all those subjects. How much is believable is up to the individual... but look at it this way.

 

... We're barely into the technological age. After a million years of living in trees and running away from four-legged predators we've only just started building machines. Our industrial age is barely a couple of centuries old... and in that time we've reached the computer age.

 

We've gone from purely natural means of propulsion... legs, horses, Eagle (if you're Gandalf), have given way to steam, internal combustion, to Ion and plasma drive.

 

According to Lazar, the fuel source of the craft he was working on was E115... an element we can just about manufacture in tiny amounts right now. We'd need a couple of kilos of the stuff to power the craft he claims to have been back engineering. Instead of chemical reaction it operates on a form of gravitational drive, creating it's OWN gravity as a means of propulsion. Now if you can manipulate gravity, and gravity directly impacts time and space, going really, really fast is no longer a component of travel, potentially.

 

Yup, we're still left with the - where are they problem? I suspect lots of civilisations destroy themselves as technology advances quicker than the animal mind controlling it. If the nazis had nuclear bombs no doubt they'd have used them - and then the Yanks would've followed suit (wait they did) and it'd be easy to imagine our civilisation not getting any further... but presuming you are neither too stupid nor too aggressive and overcome our limited understanding of space time then where are you? Do you think they enjoy watching intelligent creatures suffer and die when clearly they could do something about it. Nasty aliens if they exist, but most likely we are each trapped on our little island planet in space.

[Terrorfex]

If I remember this correctly, the closer you get to the speed of light the greater the increase in the object's mass until it reaches near infinite mass.

 

Again, we're thinking in purely conventional terms.

 

We already know that the speed of light can be altered, even using today's technology. Further to that, we know that Time, gravity and Space are interrelated, and who's to say that these can't be manipulated? Time slows down the greater the greater the gravitational mass it comes into contact with. Nothing about the Universe is 100% fixed... there are rules, but they can be manipulated.

 

It's possible that breaching the Speed of Light isn't a necessary component in the equation.

 

Speed isn't the issue. Logistics is. Even if, through waving your hand you had yourself an engine which either did break the speed of light or via the process of bumming tachyons or other theoretical particles came close, you're still limited entirely by lightspeed communication. A transmission between Earth and Mars takes around twenty minutes; communication between Earth and Voyager I, some eleven billion miles from Earth (A shade under fifty thousand times the distance between the Earth and the Moon) and exiting the Solar System tales around seventeen hours each way - and in terms of interstellar distance, Voyager I is in another room in your house.

 

Imagining a situation where a future spacecraft, KELT-1, is capable of speeds of 80% lightspeed and sets a course for Proxima Centurai, the nearest star to the Sol System. At its absolute closest approach, Proxima is a mere 3.11 light years from Earth: 1.83x10^13 miles or 2.96 × 10^16 metres (A little over seventy seven million five hundred thousand times the distance between the Earth and the Moon).

 

At 80% Lightspeed (239,833,966 metres per second, or 536,493,303 MPH ), it would take KELT-1, the last, best hope for Mankind 3.91 years, one way. In interstellar terms, we've gone from the room next to yours to maybe - at a push - the house across the street. Forget communication - you somehow have to sustain a crew with provisions and supplies for what would presumably be at least an eight year mission ... And this is presuming you've hit 80% Lightspeed.

 

Then you move onto the relativistic effects of travel at that speed. Effectively, while eight years have passed since the brave crew of KELT-1 set out, arrived and came home from Proxima Centauri, a far longer period of time has passed for those on Earth.

 

Plugging all this in, we get a "Relativity Factor" of 1.66 (roughly). What this means is that for every year that passes for KELT-1, 1.66 passes for Earth. As a result by the conclusion of the mission, an eight-year jaunt has become 13.28 years.

 

Now, imagine even if you could travel at the speed of light - or higher, the effect this relativistic time dilation would have. Decades, or more, might elapse between leaving and returning home.

 

Isn't science fun?

[Bobby Connor]

Think Hawkings proposed a ship design that could achieve 98% light speed? 6 years to accelerate to it though or something like that.

[Bobby Connor]

FWIW I do tend to go along with Kelt and MT's opinion that there is a quicker way of getting from A to B but we just haven't imagined it yet.

 

I like to view the universe as a big puzzle to be solved and the idea that you can't explore it is a bit unacceptable.

[Ke1t]

Yup, we're still left with the - where are they problem? I suspect lots of civilisations destroy themselves as technology advances quicker than the animal mind controlling it.

 

Maybe they don't even destroy themselves. Maybe they just run out of resources.

 

Hawking reckons we have 200 years to get off the planet and into space. If we don't manage that then we're... i believe his words were, "We're good and fucked." Because in that time we'll have mined our own planet to exhaustion. But up in space there's all sorts of good shit just floating around waiting to be exploited. One good sized asteroid could keep us in platinum or iron for decades.

 

I happen to think that 200 years is more than manageable. Again, we've gone from Victorians with home made wings to the Space Shuttle in 100 or so years of flight. With new materials we can build some mental, mental things that just weren't possible in the past. Stuff like the Space Elevator to Arcology.

 

If the nazis had nuclear bombs no doubt they'd have used them -

 

Now you raise a very interesting point. At the end of the war the Americans diverted one of their armies South, rather than continue pressing East. At the time it made little sense, even in the light of some allegedly defensible "Wolf's Lair" in the mountains. Why was this? Rumour has it...

 

After the war the Allies laughed about the German nuclear project... "Look!" they laughed. "Look how badly they did in trying to create an atomic bomb. They didn't even have a proper reactor to produce the plutonium needed for a small bomb!" Oh, how they laughed.

 

Coincidentally, I'm now reading a book about the official story versus historical events and the necessary components for building a Bomb.

 

Turns out you don't actually need a reactor. I mean, if you're building a plutonium bomb then, sure, you're going to need a reactor. But then, plutonium isn't the only fissionable material that you can stick in a nuclear weapon. Uranium works just as well, and can be refined using a process called Gas Diffusion. Without any need for a reactor you can separate the U235.

 

So, no reactor doesn't mean no capacity to build a nuclear weapon.

 

Reports of explosions resembling nuclear detonations (retrospectively identified as such, of course) were reported at Therungia in Germany, and some Baltic Island called Rugen circa 1944-1945.

 

Max Steenbeck, a German physicist, had allegedly been working on the project. He was captured by the Soviets after the war and, lo and behold, helped them develop their own nuclear weapon. So presumably the dude knew how to develop nuclear weapons.

 

This is getting off the topic somewhat, but it's interesting that it's possible the NAZIs weren't as far from a working nuclear weapon as we're told. Add to that the fact that the Germans were close (maybe a year or so out) to producing a bomber capable of transatlantic flight (JU390), and a ICBM (A9/A10) that could do likewise, and you can see why the Yanks would want to minimise any news that the NAZIs were close to hitting US cities with anything other than propaganda.

 

 

 

and then the Yanks would've followed suit (wait they did) and it'd be easy to imagine our civilisation not getting any further... but presuming you are neither too stupid nor too aggressive and overcome our limited understanding of space time then where are you? Do you think they enjoy watching intelligent creatures suffer and die when clearly they could do something about it.

 

Depends, again, on what theory you adhere to. There are some batshit crazy ideas floating around. Most of them seem to start off at that level of nuts and get worse from there. But then, we still experiment on animals... maybe 'aliens' are using humans to experiment on.

 

You might be interested in reading the story of THIS poor fucker, found in Brazil in 1994.

 

 

 

 

Nasty aliens if they exist, but most likely we are each trapped on our little island planet in space.

 

I'm more or less convinced we're 'not alone'.

 

Where 'they' come from is anyone's guess.

 

There are theories of Transdimensional beings. Extraterrestrial beings. Time Travellers, and civilisations inside the earth. Take your pick. not all UFOs are allegedly coming from Zeta Reticuli.

[Ke1t]

Speed isn't the issue. Logistics is. Even if, through waving your hand you had yourself an engine which either did break the speed of light or via the process of bumming tachyons or other theoretical particles came close, you're still limited entirely by lightspeed communication. A transmission between Earth and Mars takes around twenty minutes; communication between Earth and Voyager I, some eleven billion miles from Earth (A shade under fifty thousand times the distance between the Earth and the Moon) and exiting the Solar System tales around seventeen hours each way - and in terms of interstellar distance, Voyager I is in another room in your house.

 

Imagining a situation where a future spacecraft, KELT-1, is capable of speeds of 80% lightspeed and sets a course for Proxima Centurai, the nearest star to the Sol System. At its absolute closest approach, Proxima is a mere 3.11 light years from Earth: 1.83x10^13 miles or 2.96 × 10^16 metres (A little over seventy seven million five hundred thousand times the distance between the Earth and the Moon).

 

At 80% Lightspeed (239,833,966 metres per second, or 536,493,303 MPH ), it would take KELT-1, the last, best hope for Mankind 3.91 years, one way. In interstellar terms, we've gone from the room next to yours to maybe - at a push - the house across the street. Forget communication - you somehow have to sustain a crew with provisions and supplies for what would presumably be at least an eight year mission ... And this is presuming you've hit 80% Lightspeed.

 

Then you move onto the relativistic effects of travel at that speed. Effectively, while eight years have passed since the brave crew of KELT-1 set out, arrived and came home from Proxima Centauri, a far longer period of time has passed for those on Earth.

 

Plugging all this in, we get a "Relativity Factor" of 1.66 (roughly). What this means is that for every year that passes for KELT-1, 1.66 passes for Earth. As a result by the conclusion of the mission, an eight-year jaunt has become 13.28 years.

 

Now, imagine even if you could travel at the speed of light - or higher, the effect this relativistic time dilation would have. Decades, or more, might elapse between leaving and returning home.

 

Isn't science fun?

 

Again, you're talking about conventional constraints. You're discussing a vehicle that travels a particular DISTANCE at a specific SPEED taking a calculable amount of TIME. So, in effect, you're just going really, really fast in conventional time and space.

 

There's nothing radical about that, regardless of method of propulsion. Build a big and efficient enough conventional rocket, carrying enough fuel, and you could theoretically approach the speed of light given enough thrust and time.

 

Gravity impacts time massively. Apparently if you drift into a Black Hole, as you approach the Event Horizon, time more or less stands still from the perspective of someone observing you from 'normal' Space/Time. From the perspective of the person approaching the Event Horizon, things are going at 'normal' speed, because time is relative in relation to your proximity to the Event Horizon.

 

According to Lazar (again) the 'propulsion' system he was working on points 3 artificial gravity generators at a point in space, and 'Travel' is close to instantaneous, from the time the engine is turned on till it is turned off.

 

For 'conventional' travel, two generators create an artificial gravity well, and the craft just 'rolls downhill' on its own gravity in perpetuity.... until the generator is switched off. I imagine this is like the Earth rolling along the gravity well our own sun generates.

 

There's also the theory that you can 'fold' space. So A-B might ordinarily be many light years, but by 'folding; space (however that's achieved) you make the 'distance' negligible.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxl6TOLxvuI

[Terrorfex]

Again, you're talking about conventional constraints. You're discussing a vehicle that travels a particular DISTANCE at a specific SPEED taking a calculable amount of TIME. So, in effect, you're just going really, really fast in conventional time and space.

 

There's nothing radical about that, regardless of method of propulsion. Build a big and efficient enough conventional rocket, carrying enough fuel, and you could theoretically approach the speed of light given enough thrust and time.

 

Gravity impacts time massively. Apparently if you drift into a Black Hole, as you approach the Event Horizon, time more or less stands still from the perspective of someone observing you from 'normal' Space/Time. From the perspective of the person approaching the Event Horizon, things are going at 'normal' speed, because time is relative in relation to your proximity to the Event Horizon.

 

According to Lazar (again) the 'propulsion' system he was working on points 3 artificial gravity generators at a point in space, and 'Travel' is close to instantaneous, from the time the engine is turned on till it is turned off.

 

For 'conventional' travel, two generators create an artificial gravity well, and the craft just 'rolls downhill' on its own gravity in perpetuity.... until the generator is switched off. I imagine this is like the Earth rolling along the gravity well our own sun generates.

 

There's also the theory that you can 'fold' space. So A-B might ordinarily be many light years, but by 'folding; space (however that's achieved) you make the 'distance' negligible.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxl6TOLxvuI

 

Talk of the Fourth Dimension is interesting but then, comprehending the Fourth Dimension around you is a lot like expecting beings who exist only on a sheet of paper, in two dimensions, to perceive depth in addition to length and breadth. It's simply beyond their understanding.

 

As fun as Science Fiction can be, it's just that - fiction. All we have are conventional constraints; they decided the colour of your eyes, the distribution of continents and how long the future spacecraft named in your honour is going to take on its maiden flight. Folding space, Einstein-Rosenburg Bridges, Singularity Drives. they're all just theories and not a single one of them is inside of your remaining lifetime to prototype, let alone production.

 

Unfortunately, the issues of dealing with friction (Which does exist in space at the speeds being talked about), as well as the issues of compression, time dilation and exponential mass increase are well beyond our understanding.

 

I fully agree that technology in a hundred years will leave what we had now as relics, but they'll be based on new rules or modifications of existing laws. As we understand them now, these methods of propulsion are after-dinner notes and interesting youtube videos.

 

Forgetting of course, the distinct lack of a viable power source to provide the incredible energy required to manipulate gravity. At least currently.

 

Indeed there are phenomenons in Space (and time) which prove our understanding is incomplete; Black Holes being only one of those examples. But their existence doesn't provide anything more than a question we're a very long way from answering. Ultimately, while we can look ahead all we've got now is cold, hard fact.

 

Forget power sources or propulsion devices. What about metallurgy? Whilst there's endless stuff around the Web about fanciful Proton Accelerators and Warp Drives, no-one's done much on answering the question of what we're supposed to make our "spacecraft" out of that can either survive the stresses that make Surface-to-Orbit launch look like climbing up the stairs, or otherwise exist in a useful form that can be machined and mass-produced.

 

It's the boring side of the new frontier; logistics, metallurgy, environment and structures. We'll just have to see what happens.

[Bobby Connor]

It would seem that without some sort of crazy, unimagined way of getting out of the solar system then the main stumbling block is time. You could head off at light speed, pop back home to tell everyone what you discovered and it's the year 4000.

 

Quite a serious issue but maybe that's how it'll end up and is just a factor that we need to get our heads around?

 

*edit* Just to add that I really enjoy Terrorfex's posts on this type of subject.

[Ke1t]

Talk of the Fourth Dimension is interesting but then, comprehending the Fourth Dimension around you is a lot like expecting beings who exist only on a sheet of paper, in two dimensions, to perceive depth in addition to length and breadth. It's simply beyond their understanding.

 

As fun as Science Fiction can be, it's just that - fiction. All we have are conventional constraints; they decided the colour of your eyes, the distribution of continents and how long the future spacecraft named in your honour is going to take on its maiden flight. Folding space, Einstein-Rosenburg Bridges, Singularity Drives. they're all just theories and not a single one of them is inside of your remaining lifetime to prototype, let alone production.

 

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to refer to theoretical physics as 'science fiction'. The area is designed to speculate what's possible, and then to prove or disprove those theories.

 

Even on a basic level we've gone beyond popular Science Fiction already. 50 years ago, Kirk had his little Flip-phone that allowed him to order Scotty to Beam him up. We may not be able to beam people up, but the communication device he uses is already a decade out of date. He couldn't even text or download music to the thing.

 

Spock talks about an 'Advanced Ion Drive'. We've had operational vehicles in space using Ion Drives for a fair length of time now.

 

Superstructures have been speculated for decades, but the materials to build them didn't exist. Well, now they do. Nanocarbons, when they're eventually mass-produced, will allow us to build entire arcologies, where before there was inefficient cities full of polluting traffic.

 

Other areas aren't so far off. Blade Runner has genetically created humans. We've already created artificial sheep in Scotland. No coincidence Scotland's first cloned creature happened to be a sheep. Old habits and that.

 

What's speculated today tends to be operational tomorrow. And the guys working on theoretical physics are considerably smarter than Gene Roddenberry.

 

you're correct that I'll not be around to see any of the speculated science come to pass... but you never know. some of it might transpire faster than we think.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the issues of dealing with friction (Which does exist in space at the speeds being talked about), as well as the issues of compression, time dilation and exponential mass increase are well beyond our understanding.

 

I fully agree that technology in a hundred years will leave what we had now as relics, but they'll be based on new rules or modifications of existing laws. As we understand them now, these methods of propulsion are after-dinner notes and interesting youtube videos.

 

Forgetting of course, the distinct lack of a viable power source to provide the incredible energy required to manipulate gravity. At least currently.

 

Indeed there are phenomenons in Space (and time) which prove our understanding is incomplete; Black Holes being only one of those examples. But their existence doesn't provide anything more than a question we're a very long way from answering. Ultimately, while we can look ahead all we've got now is cold, hard fact.

 

Well, yeah, but the speculation isn't that WE are travelling to the stars. The speculation is that we're being visited by creatures FROM the stars.

 

If, in a couple of hundred years, we can go from horses to supersonic travel... that we can make a journey in a few hours that once took months, using technologies that weren't even theoretical 200 years ago, then it's not exactly a massive leap of faith to imagine that a civilsation a mere two thousand years ahead of us would have physics, and means of travel based on those physics, more than capable of bridging what we, in three dimensional space, consider to be vast 'distances'.

[Terrorfex]

I think it's somewhat disingenuous to refer to theoretical physics as 'science fiction'. The area is designed to speculate what's possible, and then to prove or disprove those theories.

 

Even on a basic level we've gone beyond popular Science Fiction already. 50 years ago, Kirk had his little Flip-phone that allowed him to order Scotty to Beam him up. We may not be able to beam people up, but the communication device he uses is already a decade out of date. He couldn't even text or download music to the thing.

 

Spock talks about an 'Advanced Ion Drive'. We've had operational vehicles in space using Ion Drives for a fair length of time now.

 

Superstructures have been speculated for decades, but the materials to build them didn't exist. Well, now they do. Nanocarbons, when they're eventually mass-produced, will allow us to build entire arcologies, where before there was inefficient cities full of polluting traffic.

 

Other areas aren't so far off. Blade Runner has genetically created humans. We've already created artificial sheep in Scotland. No coincidence Scotland's first cloned creature happened to be a sheep. Old habits and that.

 

What's speculated today tends to be operational tomorrow. And the guys working on theoretical physics are considerably smarter than Gene Roddenberry.

 

you're correct that I'll not be around to see any of the speculated science come to pass... but you never know. some of it might transpire faster than we think.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, yeah, but the speculation isn't that WE are travelling to the stars. The speculation is that we're being visited by creatures FROM the stars.

 

If, in a couple of hundred years, we can go from horses to supersonic travel... that we can make a journey in a few hours that once took months, using technologies that weren't even theoretical 200 years ago, then it's not exactly a massive leap of faith to imagine that a civilsation a mere two thousand years ahead of us would have physics, and means of travel based on those physics, more than capable of bridging what we, in three dimensional space, consider to be vast 'distances'.

 

 

You'll have to forgive the slight on Theoretical Physics, but then the argument between how much is theory and how much is dressed-up after dinner debating is way older than me (and you!). Of course, having said that if it's not too much of a stretch to think a species 2000 years ahead of us would have interstellar travel capabilities (Which I agree with you, isn't too ridiculous) then one would think in the good five hundred years or so of "modern" Human History, one would have shown up and given us proof.

 

Unless of course, they operated a "Prime Directive" of sort ... But that's just science fiction.

 

I think Arthur C Clarke's age-old adage sums up both our points quite well: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

I just want to add I don't intend to come across so negatively: trust me when I say Man's penchant for technological advancement is nothing short of balls-to-the-wall AWESOME.

[Ke1t]

You'll have to forgive the slight on Theoretical Physics, but then the argument between how much is theory and how much is dressed-up after dinner debating is way older than me (and you!). Of course, having said that if it's not too much of a stretch to think a species 2000 years ahead of us would have interstellar travel capabilities (Which I agree with you, isn't too ridiculous) then one would think in the good five hundred years or so of "modern" Human History, one would have shown up and given us proof.

 

Unless of course, they operated a "Prime Directive" of sort ... But that's just science fiction.

 

Well, remember that we're not exactly in the Galactic Centre... we're off on the fringe of our particular Galaxy, so maybe no-one's overly concerned about zipping to BFE to check out Rock n Roll. Also, maybe we're just one of thousands of civilisations, in various stages of development, and we don't merit any particular interest.

 

 

I think Arthur C Clarke's age-old adage sums up both our points quite well: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

I've always agreed with that. That's why I want a robot cock, because all the lassies will think it's magic

 

I just want to add I don't intend to come across so negatively: trust me when I say Man's penchant for technological advancement is nothing short of balls-to-the-wall AWESOME.

 

This is the thing.

 

In order to convince yourself that we'll NEVER reach the stars we first have to assure ourselves that there will be no more advances in physics and engineering. That we've reached the absolute pinnacle of human technological advancement, and that from here on in we're going to stagnate with little more than updated OS for our Apple products to keep us happy.

 

Now THAT seems more unlikely to me than the notion that we'll continue to advance our knowledge of the Universe, physics and technological capabilities.

 

Since we started living in the first fortified communities, Human history has been one of constant advancement, with the occasional blip here and there. I don't see any reason to think that we're going to stop advancing now.

 

And with the advent of computers, capable of doing much of the spadework for us... you know, simple stuff like The Human Genome Project... I can see the next couple of hundred years being enormously more productive than the last few thousand in terms of science and technology.

[Bobby Connor]

I watched the Christmas lectures with Brian Cox this year and he was explaining how it is theoretically possible for the diamond he was holding to disappear and reappear at the other end of the universe, instantaneously. The odds of it happening where astronomical but in theory it could happen, such is the nature of the way everything in the universe is connected.

 

That's probably the kind of thing you'd need to learn to control and master.

[bonzodaddy73]

I've done a fair bit of research into this myself, and the offical explanation of the time does indeeed make no sense at all.

 

What is NOW the official explanation makes a lot more sense. The balloon belonged to a highly secretive US spy programme called Project Mogul, only recently de-classified, designed to spy on the Japanese. The balloons were launched from the US Air Force base at Roswell and were supposed to drift over Japan, armed to the teeth with all manner of info-gathering gadgetry. These were no ordinary balloons either, they were hooring great silvery things that were about 60ft high and designed to float through the higher reaches of the atmosphere.

 

I'm fairly convinced that most sightings of unusual craft are in fact just secret 'black' projects dreamt up by the USAF. The 'UFO' stuff is really just a useful smokescreen, a deflection tactic designed to get the public engaged in conspiracy theories about ETs whilst the government quietly goes about the business of testing ever more radical military equipment.

 

The other point to bear in mind is that a lot of folk desperately WANT this pish to be true. In that sense a belief in aliens and UFOs has more in common with religious belief than with serious, scientific thought. Most UFO enthusiasts could see a frisbee coming over the garden wall and think they were about to receive a visitation from Alpha Centauri.

So in the entire universe you don't think there is chance that other intelligent life is out there? I'm not saying that they have visited here, but I severely doubt humans are the pinnacle of the universe.

[Bobby Connor]

I just lit a fag and changed the energy level of every electron in the Universe.

[The Boofon]

I watched the Christmas lectures with Brian Cox this year and he was explaining how it is theoretically possible for the diamond he was holding to disappear and reappear at the other end of the universe, instantaneously. The odds of it happening where astronomical but in theory it could happen, such is the nature of the way everything in the universe is connected.

 

That's probably the kind of thing you'd need to learn to control and master.

 

 

I could listen to that cunt all day. Even when he says things in "simple terms" he baffles the fuck out of me.

 

Lovely teeth and a brain the size of a zeppelin.

 

However everything he says is so complicated I get the feeling that he and other scientists might just be taking the piss out of us slightly smaller brain boxes.

 

I can picture them all having a laugh prior to airing the TV shows making up shit and seeing what they can get away with.

 

That diamond thing for example.

 

I believe it because he says it's possible but really? I mean the odds on Paul Daniels actually cutting Debbie McGee in half and putting her back together again are astronomical but it's possible.

 

 

On another note it was an absolute fucking retard that started this thread but by fuck there are some clever bastards posting on it now.

[Bobby Connor]

Yeah, I love him too. His posts on Twitter are brilliant.

 

Take this for example:

 

Brian CoxVerified ‏@ProfBrianCox

I have a hangover, but read so many tweets from bloody creationists and 2012 apocalypse nob janglers that I might start drinking again

 

He reckons it's all simple but I think he underestimates the size of his brain. Every time I think I have wrapped my head around it I realise that I've forgotten all the earlier stuff.

 

Saying that, it's not my day job.

[The Boofon]

Yeah, I love him too. His posts on Twitter are brilliant.

 

Take this for example:

 

 

 

He reckons it's all simple but I think he underestimates the size of his brain. Every time I think I have wrapped my head around it I realise that I've forgotten all the earlier stuff.

 

Saying that, it's not my day job.

 

In that case you're another one that needs to read Moonwalking with Einstein.

 

I never forget fuck all these days.

[bonzodaddy73]

I agree with what a few of the lads have said here. In that this is a very enjoyable thread with some excellent points of view.

[Bobby Connor]

In that case you're another one that needs to read Moonwalking with Einstein.

 

I never forget fuck all these days.

 

There's a finite amount of room in my brain and most of it is already filled with mince. How does this book help?

[The Oxford Don]

So in the entire universe you don't think there is chance that other intelligent life is out there? I'm not saying that they have visited here, but I severely doubt humans are the pinnacle of the universe.

 

Whoa whoa fucking WHOA! When did I say that?

 

There absolutely, positively is life elsewhere in the Universe. The odds on us being the only life-supporting planet in the universe are fucking ridiculous. And it stands to reason that many of these planets will support or will have supported at one time lifeforms vastly more intelligent than us. For a good way of estimating how many Earth-like planets there are in the universe at any one time read Carl Sagan's Cosmos.

 

I urge you to re-read my earlier post. All I did was attempt to debunk the Roswell nonsense and also defuse the ET/UFO hysteria, which does my fucking box in.

 

Is there life elsewhere in the universe? yes, of course.

 

Is there the slightest scrap of evidence to suggest that any of these lifeforms have ever been here? Not really, no.

[looksgoodinred]

a whole bunch of smart minds (don't worry.. i'm not including mine) with some opposing views. this should get interesting.

 

[E-P-K]

170+ billion galaxies in the universe, with our Milky Way galaxy having up to 400 billion stars alone.

 

Mind boggling.

 

 

As is this video clip on star size -

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEheh1BH34Q

 

[Bobby Connor]

I'll bet you any amount of money you like that there is life elsewhere in the universe Rocket and we are inconsequential dusts of sand.

 

I'm putting the onus on you to prove otherwise.

[tommo1903]

you said u didnt believe it for a second

 

you also said why havent they sent down another ship since...well, how do you know they havent?

 

theres every chance, that the 2 guys they sent down originally, were thick

 

ie, in the same way when we do a first voyage, we send up a dog or something to see how that reacts

 

maybe the aliens on their planet picked out 2 morons, 2 thickos to test the travel on

 

or maybe they were even already dead and just plonked in there by the aliens as a ploy, manning the flight from their own base

[The Oxford Don]

WwfW yersel.

 

How can you say absolutely, positively re life elsewhere in the universe? I reckon the best approach is to say we don't know.

 

Just as devout atheists devour the pious and the agnostic with their "prove it" arguments, how can you be so sure?

 

I agree with you re Roswell. That it "happened" in the US of A makes it even less credible.

 

Just as life inhabits one vessel which or who's body expires and life is born simultaneously elsewhere on the planet, who's to say that this planet is the breathing vessel just now and that others preceded earth and others may follow us?

 

We can't even fathom out this planet first of all before rushing into space. The vast majority of underwater life is unknown to us and new insect forms are being discovered all the time so I would be sceptical about major pronouncements about what exists beyond earth at this stage. That Hammond documentary this evening pointed out that twelve men have stood on the moon but only two guys have been to the bottom of the sea but the reality is that we know very little about anything. Some theoretical philosophy borders on the mindwank but until something is known to be true, it's purely speculation and stretching the boundaries, always a good strategy in my book.

 

There is truth, both known and unknown (as yet) and it expands with time. Pronouncing truth on what surely must be unknown is folly.

 

Literally unknown and unknowable, of course. And I am also familiar with the concept of the burden of proof, so you're quite right to haul me up.

 

But commonsense tells us that, given the sheer number of galaxies, the countless billions of stars in each galaxy and then the number of planets orbiting those stars... Christ, there MUST be some sodding life out there somewhere!

 

Anyway V good to have you back, Rocket.

[Bobby Connor]

You are in most likelihood correct but the burden of proof can not possibly be on anyone other than the absolutist.

 

Spik for yersel. My sandy dust is a technicolour party and it never stops. It's of consequence to me.

 

I'd agree that the burden of proof lies with the absolutist. In this case it's more of a grey area as any religious figure will dispute the possibility of ET and therefore should prove it.

 

Not that I'm putting you in that bracket, and, of course, your existence is of consequence to me an all.

 

But in a billion years time we'll be nothing and anything we've done or accomplished will count for fuck all. Kelt has a poem about it.

[Terrorfex]

This is the perfect moment to throw in this.

 

 

 

That blue pixel, in the middle of the "brown" shaft of diffused light, is the Planet Earth - pictured by Voyager I from about eight billion miles away.

 

If you're in the mood for something reflective, check out. Carl Sagan was a truly great man.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pfwY2TNehw

[Bobby Connor]

What's your day job TF? You seem to know a lot about science?

[Bobby Connor]

This feels right to me. I can't prove it but it FEELS like the truth.

 

My opinion that there may well be a lot less time involved. I've always wondered if we're playing the endgame, the opening and the middle having been played out for some thousands rather than millions of years. One big tectonic plate crash and goodnight Vienna. Shite city anyway, austere and full of weirdos. But Siena, and even Leicester, Aberdeen and Dusseldorf, those other cultural iconic European cities would fall too. And Gourdon and Peterhead.

 

I think I prefer it that way anyway. Who other than a total megalomaniac would want to taint history forever?

 

Clean slate every so few billion years is a good thing.

[The Oxford Don]

How to estimate the number of civilisations in a galaxy:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

 

...and here is some additional info on Project Mogul, by far the likeliest explanation for what happened at Roswell in 1947. It was actually the Soviets they were spying on, nae sure where I picked up Japan from (bloody Discovery Channel, probably):

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mogul