U20's Thread

[boboisared]

TBF a lot of the names you quote there got their chances in teams full of dross and wouldn't have had much to aspire to.

McInnes had chances to play younger players and never really took them.

In retrospect our final 5 games in the last 2 seasons would have been ideal given the results! He even played one of our "better" youngsters in our final league game against St Johnstone a couple of years back, the team he was going to join after the season ended?? WTF was that all about?

They were seen as the best prospects at the time. We had no cash to spare and had no option but to play them and they did not improve at all.

 

The other lad seems to think there is a direct link between fielding a kid (whether they are ready or not) and improvement.

[Parklife]

So you can guarantee that playing a player in the first team whether he is ready or not will improve them?

 

*Sigh*

 

 

You stated McInnes doesn't play young players, he does. If they are good enough. If they are not good enough, they go out on loan to get games to help their development.

He'll play a young player who's better than a fully-established player. If we had young players better than McGinn, Hayes, Etc, then they wouldn't be at Aberdeen. You have to let players develop.

[Robbie Winters]

Development League - Dundee United 2 Hearts 2 - Cammy Smith brace

[craegDAMH]

He'll play a young player who's better than a fully-established player. If we had young players better than McGinn, Hayes, Etc, then they wouldn't be at Aberdeen. You have to let players develop.

 

Yes, but he can't be developing young players in the first team at the expense of results when expected to win every game. That's why Ward wasn't in Liverpool's first team and Maddison isn't in Norwich's. And it's why McKenna and Wright need to go and get games elsewhere if they are going to reach a level where they can contribute.

 

Do you really want Wright playing ahead of Hayes or McGinn?

[The Village Seagull]

It's time to be radical and get some forward thinkers on board.

 

Alex Smith at the helm of youth development. Oversees the whole operation.

Under 20 Manager - Obvious choice is Jocky Scott.

Under 18 Manager - Alex Miller

Under 16 Manager - Scott Crabb

Under 14 Manager - Graeme Rix

 

Complete overhaul such as the above would bring instant results.

[boboisared]

*Sigh*

 

He'll play a young player who's better than a fully-established player. If we had young players better than McGinn, Hayes, Etc, then they wouldn't be at Aberdeen. You have to let players develop.

Go on then, you seem to have painted yourself as they all knowing in regards to youth development. How should the club go about things...

[Parklife]

 

Yes, but he can't be developing young players in the first team at the expense of results when expected to win every game. That's why Ward wasn't in Liverpool's first team and Maddison isn't in Norwich's. And it's why McKenna and Wright need to go and get games elsewhere if they are going to reach a level where they can contribute.

 

Do you really want Wright playing ahead of Hayes or McGinn?

He has to develop players in the first team. We don't have to and are not winning every game.

 

McKenna couldn't make any more mistakes than Taylor or Reynolds. Have you seen the goals we've lost the last 18 months?

 

Yet again though, you're using individual examples, rather than understanding that i'm talking in general terms. McInnes has had 3.5 years in charge now. 0 young players have emerged from the youth team to become starters. There is no pathway from youth level to first team.

 

To answer your specific question though. I've not seen enough of Wright, as he's barely played. Would i rather have him on the bench and getting the minutes Wes Burns is getting? Too fucking right i would.

[Parklife]

Go on then, you seem to have painted yourself as they all knowing in regards to youth development. How should the club go about things...

You want me to give you a youth development strategy on a post on an internet messageboard?

[boboisared]

You want me to give you a youth development strategy on a post on an internet messageboard?

So you don't know what you're speaking about?

 

That's that one then. Cheers.

[sooth_stander]

Storie off to St.Mirren

That will be the last we see of him at AFC. 18 months left on his contract but that's him tatties.

 

Funny how we sign these players at 16 that apparently Man U and Celtic were after, then it all turns Pete Tong.

 

Callum Bagshaw case in point

[boboisared]

He has to develop players in the first team. We don't have to and are not winning every game.

 

McKenna couldn't make any more mistakes than Taylor or Reynolds. Have you seen the goals we've lost the last 18 months?

 

Yet again though, you're using individual examples, rather than understanding that i'm talking in general terms. McInnes has had 3.5 years in charge now. 0 young players have emerged from the youth team to become starters. There is no pathway from youth level to first team.

 

To answer your specific question though. I've not seen enough of Wright, as he's barely played. Would i rather have him on the bench and getting the minutes Wes Burns is getting? Too fucking right i would.

So you are informing us all that all these Under 20's should be playing to get game time, yet haven't seen enough of them yourself to decide if they are any use?

 

If we're not looking to win every game, then what's the fucking point?

 

That will be the last we see of him at AFC. 18 months left on his contract but that's him tatties.

 

Funny how we sign these players at 16 that apparently Man U and Celtic were after, then it all turns Pete Tong.

 

Callum Bagshaw case in point

Did he nae leave in a huff because his brother was binned?

[Parklife]

So you don't know what you're speaking about?

 

That's that one then. Cheers.

I do indeed know. You seem to want a detailed youth development strategy on an internet messageboard post? Hilariously moronic.

 

So you are informing us all that all these Under 20's should be playing to get game time, yet haven't seen enough of them yourself to decide if they are any use?

 

If we're not looking to win every game, then what's the fucking point?

Of course we look to win every game. Winning can't be an Aberdeen manager's only objective though.

[Foster14]

He has to develop players in the first team. We don't have to and are not winning every game.

 

McKenna couldn't make any more mistakes than Taylor or Reynolds. Have you seen the goals we've lost the last 18 months?

 

Yet again though, you're using individual examples, rather than understanding that i'm talking in general terms. McInnes has had 3.5 years in charge now. 0 young players have emerged from the youth team to become starters. There is no pathway from youth level to first team.

 

To answer your specific question though. I've not seen enough of Wright, as he's barely played. Would i rather have him on the bench and getting the minutes Wes Burns is getting? Too fucking right i would.

 

I agree with your sentiments to a certain extent. It is frustrating to see loan players who don't make any impact to get repeated chances throughout their time at the Dons over our own youth players. Burns would be the latest example, but we've had Monakana, McLaughlin and Parker in the last two years who've flirted around the first team and had zero or negative impact. I guess that is the risk of loans though, because we've had some positive impacts from the likes of Ward, Maddison and Church.

 

My main concern is that through the youth system, I can't think of many players who have not had their chance at Aberdeen and then gone on to do anything somewhere else. If the suggestion is that McInnes isn't blooding youngsters that are able enough to get in to our first team, then I would have thought that would be easily supported by them turning up in other teams of a similar or better standard than Aberdeen. The only example I can think that comes close to this is Shaughnessey and while I had time for him as an Aberdeen player, he wasn't good enough at the time to be a first on the teamsheet, and from what I have seen of him more recently, I don't think we have missed out too much. He also was given plenty opportunities in the first team.

 

The problems with the youth team lie deeper than the door not being open to the first team. Options not coming from the youth team is certainly a factor in some of the issues that surrounds the first team.

 

It's more for another thread but the biggest issue with McInnes is his lack of a use of a first team squad, more relying on favourites. That seems to have changed of late, but in a very scattergun, non-sensical approach.

[Jds192]

The reason none of the young players have come through to be starters is because they are not good enough.

 

Think some people over estimate how much better players get just through exposure to first team football.

 

If that was the case players would be leaving and proving Mcinnes wrong and so far not one has done that. Dont think any have even been established as average/poor SPL players.

[Parklife]

 

The problems with the youth team lie deeper than the door not being open to the first team.

Agree totally.

[robbojunior]

He has to develop players in the first team. We don't have to and are not winning every game.

 

McKenna couldn't make any more mistakes than Taylor or Reynolds. Have you seen the goals we've lost the last 18 months?

 

Yet again though, you're using individual examples, rather than understanding that i'm talking in general terms. McInnes has had 3.5 years in charge now. 0 young players have emerged from the youth team to become starters. There is no pathway from youth level to first team.

 

To answer your specific question though. I've not seen enough of Wright, as he's barely played. Would i rather have him on the bench and getting the minutes Wes Burns is getting? Too fucking right i would.

 

Of course he could. What a daft thing to believe.

[robbojunior]

The only thing I think Derek McInnes should have done more, is give young players a half or 30 mins in games that we're comfortably winning (such as the 4-0 games v killie and partick), or in the games at the end of last season when we had 2nd sown up but couldn't catch Celtic. Those would have been ideal times to give them experience that may have helped their development, even if they weren't actually good enough to be in the first team yet.

 

I don't think he should be starting young players just to give them experience. Either they are good enough to start or they are not.

[Tommy]

The only thing I think Derek McInnes should have done more, is give young players a half or 30 mins in games that we're comfortably winning (such as the 4-0 games v killie and partick), or in the games at the end of last season when we had 2nd sown up but couldn't catch Celtic. Those would have been ideal times to give them experience that may have helped their development, even if they weren't actually good enough to be in the first team yet.

 

I don't think he should be starting young players just to give them experience. Either they are good enough to start or they are not.

Can't argue with that.

[Foster14]

The only thing I think Derek McInnes should have done more, is give young players a half or 30 mins in games that we're comfortably winning (such as the 4-0 games v killie and partick), or in the games at the end of last season when we had 2nd sown up but couldn't catch Celtic. Those would have been ideal times to give them experience that may have helped their development, even if they weren't actually good enough to be in the first team yet.

 

I don't think he should be starting young players just to give them experience. Either they are good enough to start or they are not.

 

It must go beyond youth players though. We have squad players that haven't played much this season that still don't get in to the team in that situation. Main one I'd be thinking of there is Storey. With McInnes, his subs are almost as predictable as his starting line ups.

 

Actually, that final statement would have held more sway until the last couple of months, the predictability has gone out the window there.

 

Bit of a double edged sword overall though. There are certainly times in the last couple of seasons, where we have been at our wit's end with a player and you think that surely can't be any worse to give someone else a run out, but then if they aren't good enough to come in and do a competent job, who does it benefit taking them in for a short time, in the process destroying their confidence?

 

As an aside, I was trying to think if their is any youth player that has come in to our team in the last 15 years and has performed in such a manner that everyone reflecting on their Aberdeen career would think of them positively. Beyond McNaughton and potentially Fraser's short time as a first team player, I am not sure I can come up with any. Clark, Mackie, Diamond, Maguire, Foster, Young, Fyvie, Considine, Pawlett, Jack, Smith, Shaughnessey. All players who had over 50 appearances for us, but I don't think anyone would have a majority view that they brought something positive to our team, and were largely carried by other players.

[robbojunior]

 

It must go beyond youth players though. We have squad players that haven't played much this season that still don't get in to the team in that situation. Main one I'd be thinking of there is Storey. With McInnes, his subs are almost as predictable as his starting line ups.

 

Actually, that final statement would have held more sway until the last couple of months, the predictability has gone out the window there.

 

Bit of a double edged sword overall though. There are certainly times in the last couple of seasons, where we have been at our wit's end with a player and you think that surely can't be any worse to give someone else a run out, but then if they aren't good enough to come in and do a competent job, who does it benefit taking them in for a short time, in the process destroying their confidence?

 

As an aside, I was trying to think if their is any youth player that has come in to our team in the last 15 years and has performed in such a manner that everyone reflecting on their Aberdeen career would think of them positively. Beyond McNaughton and potentially Fraser's short time as a first team player, I am not sure I can come up with any. Clark, Mackie, Diamond, Maguire, Foster, Young, Fyvie, Considine, Pawlett, Jack, Smith, Shaughnessey. All players who had over 50 appearances for us, but I don't think anyone would have a majority view that they brought something positive to our team, and were largely carried by other players.

 

Yeah but if he thinks squad players aren't good enough, I can understand him not giving them any game time. Youth players though, can only benefit from some first team experience - whilst there are only limited opportunities to give them this if we want to keep up the top of the league, Derek probably deserves to be criticised for not even using those limited opportunites to do this.

[craegDAMH]

He has to develop players in the first team. We don't have to and are not winning every game.

 

McKenna couldn't make any more mistakes than Taylor or Reynolds. Have you seen the goals we've lost the last 18 months?

 

Yet again though, you're using individual examples, rather than understanding that i'm talking in general terms. McInnes has had 3.5 years in charge now. 0 young players have emerged from the youth team to become starters. There is no pathway from youth level to first team.

 

To answer your specific question though. I've not seen enough of Wright, as he's barely played. Would i rather have him on the bench and getting the minutes Wes Burns is getting? Too fucking right i would.

 

Name a game Aberdeen are not expected to win?

 

Taylor and Reynolds aren't in the team either. And he made plenty of mistakes when we got papped 4-0 by Ross County. A game Wright played in and was entirely ineffectual in.

 

Yes, I understand. You think that the players aren't coming through because they aren't getting played by McInnes. I'm saying they are not coming through because they aren't good enough. You ignored my earlier question, do you think if we had a Ryan Fraser in the youth team that he would not be getting minutes? There's no room in our team at the moment to try and develop a player whose ceiling is being an average squad player.

 

I'd rather Wright was on loan getting regular first team football in the lower leagues.

[slinkyvagabond]

I'll be honest and admit I dont watch the youth team games but the bottom line is if there were lads chomping at the bit for a game who had shown real potential I believe whoever was the manager would play them but it looks like the quality is just not there and to be brutal its been like that for far too long.

 

In recent times AFC have produced Maguire, Jack and Fraser. The best of those 3 was Ryan Fraser, Maguire is currently at League 1 Oxford Utd while Jack is still with us. Thats not exactly a great advert for our youth setup is it?

 

You can debate the merits of Pawlett, Smith, Wright and Storie but they will all likely leave AFC in the near future.

 

The club scrapping the Glasgow and Edinburgh operations is news to me and actually seems quite sad.

[slinkyvagabond]

Also we are not a club that can afford to be blase(sp) towards our youth system, we need to be able to develop players and move them on for ££££ if we want to keep progressing.

[reekie_dock]

Shit rolls down hill, EPL and champ give us there players who aren't good enough to get game time like wize we do say with ours.

 

The last two pages of guff could have been saved by that

[boboisared]

I do indeed know. You seem to want a detailed youth development strategy on an internet messageboard post? Hilariously moronic.

 

Of course we look to win every game. Winning can't be an Aberdeen manager's only objective though.

I obviously don't want a detailed youth development strategy, excuse my flippant remark. I'm just interested to know what you think we should be doing to bring through youth when you have a condescending attitude towards anyone who shows the hint of disagreeing with you. You don't even watch the Under 20's play, yet think we should be throwing them in.

 

The reason none of the young players have come through to be starters is because they are not good enough.

 

Think some people over estimate how much better players get just through exposure to first team football.

 

If that was the case players would be leaving and proving Mcinnes wrong and so far not one has done that. Dont think any have even been established as average/poor SPL players.

Exactly this.

 

The only thing I think Derek McInnes should have done more, is give young players a half or 30 mins in games that we're comfortably winning (such as the 4-0 games v killie and partick), or in the games at the end of last season when we had 2nd sown up but couldn't catch Celtic. Those would have been ideal times to give them experience that may have helped their development, even if they weren't actually good enough to be in the first team yet.

 

I don't think he should be starting young players just to give them experience. Either they are good enough to start or they are not.

Exactly this.

[Parklife]

I obviously don't want a detailed youth development strategy, excuse my flippant remark. I'm just interested to know what you think we should be doing to bring through youth when you have a condescending attitude towards anyone who shows the hint of disagreeing with you. You don't even watch the Under 20's play, yet think we should be throwing them in.

Apologies for my manner.

 

I think we've had a few players in McInnes' time that should've had more of a chance, yes. I'm not saying that we should be playing under 20's every week at the expense of senior players and results. I just think we have to try and give some of these guys more of a go.

 

I thought McKenna came in last season and showed a bit of promise, despite clearly being raw. Maybe his loan spells will help him. Who knows. I honestly can't see how he could be worse than Ash Taylor though, the guy is a disaster. Same goes for Storie, i know his attitude is rumoured to be poor but he has talent. Is there a better way to manage him and help him develop? I don't think freezing him out and sending him on loan is the answer. Especially when it's an area we're weak in.

 

I'm not saying either of these players should be in the team every week but wouldn't it have been good to see these two (and Storey) get some football from half time on wards last week vs Killie, when we were cruising? What did bringing on Stockley, Reynolds and Burns achieve for us?

[boboisared]

Apologies for my manner.

 

I think we've had a few players in McInnes' time that should've had more of a chance, yes. I'm not saying that we should be playing under 20's every week at the expense of senior players and results. I just think we have to try and give some of these guys more of a go.

 

I thought McKenna came in last season and showed a bit of promise, despite clearly being raw. Maybe his loan spells will help him. Who knows. I honestly can't see how he could be worse than Ash Taylor though, the guy is a disaster. Same goes for Storie, i know his attitude is rumoured to be poor but he has talent. Is there a better way to manage him and help him develop? I don't think freezing him out and sending him on loan is the answer. Especially when it's an area we're weak in.

 

I'm not saying either of these players should be in the team every week but wouldn't it have been good to see these two (and Storey) get some football from half time on wards last week vs Killie, when we were cruising? What did bringing on Stockley, Reynolds and Burns achieve for us?

Can't argue with any of this post. Agree on all points.

[Jmurph]

When Hearts were forced into pitching their youngsters in a few years ago none of them looked ready or good enough. However due to them being given an extended run in the team they all eventually got better. If circumstances had been different they may never have got the opportunity to show what they can do and ended up at a very low level of football. Players only really learn when they are forced to. Much like you only really learn to drive once youve passed your test. Its just a shame it takes a circumstance for them being given a chance. Who knows how Scott Wright or McKenna would fair if given an extended run.

[Redforever86]

When Hearts were forced into pitching their youngsters in a few years ago none of them looked ready or good enough. However due to them being given an extended run in the team they all eventually got better. If circumstances had been different they may never have got the opportunity to show what they can do and ended up at a very low level of football. Players only really learn when they are forced to. Much like you only really learn to drive once youve passed your test. Its just a shame it takes a circumstance for them being given a chance. Who knows how Scott Wright or McKenna would fair if given an extended run.

I agree with this, however...

 

To be in a position to give youngsters who aren't fully developed lots of game time you need to be in either position:

 

A) Have no one else to play and struggling.

 

B) Be cruising every game at half time.

 

C) Not in desperate need of every single point.

 

Aberdeen are one of a few teams who haven't been in any of these situations for a few seasons now. The best we can do in the current set up is loan them out at the highest level possible where they will get games.

 

If they still can't cut it then there isn't much we can do.

 

I think the likes of Shaugnessy prove that even if you don't make it at Aberdeen it isn't a terrible place to learn. At the same time I'm sure we could improve.

[boboisared]

I agree with this, however...

 

To be in a position to give youngsters who aren't fully developed lots of game time you need to be in either position:

 

A) Have no one else to play and struggling.

 

B) Be cruising every game at half time.

 

C) Not in desperate need of every single point.

 

Aberdeen are one of a few teams who haven't been in any of these situations for a few seasons now. The best we can do in the current set up is loan them out at the highest level possible where they will get games.

 

If they still can't cut it then there isn't much we can do.

 

I think the likes of Shaugnessy prove that even if you don't make it at Aberdeen it isn't a terrible place to learn. At the same time I'm sure we could improve.

Th Hearts lads also had a full season of Championship football...