Glasgow Helicopter Crash

[dave_min]

 

Legal policing or illegal 'policing'?

 

You should probably be made aware that the police have a framework of laws within which they're supposed to operate.

 

They don't always choose to operate within that framework, and if you give them the capability to perform.. let's call it 'extra-judicial activity' then they don't have a particularly sterling record of always remaining within the boundaries of what they're legally allowed to do.

 

In other words, if you trust the cops to operate within the law simply on the basis of them being cops then you're being extraordinarily naive.

 

So, for example, give the cops a helicopter loaded with surveillance equipment, and do you think they can be trusted to only point it at bad guys?

 

I'm not sure it actually matters in this case.

[Redstar]

I don't think the police should be allowed to use helicopters.

You are of course correct tup...in this day and age when a remote controlled helicopter can be purchased for less than 20 quid and a camera is on even the cheapest mobile...surely throwing a few hundred grand at it could without anything more than "a wee bit of thought" come up with a remote controlled flying surveillance machine capable of doing what the 3 plonkers in the chopper were doing...without loss of life to either said plonkers or Weegies doing what Weegies do...hanging around bars getting pished...or is that way too much like common sense?

[zander]

Are the Weegies as good as offshore workers at telling everyone what the cause was before the CAA?

[Ke1t]

 

I'm not sure it actually matters in this case.

Id argue that what the cops are doing matters a great deal.

[Ke1t]

I dare say if you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about.

 

 

Hopefully that was tongue in cheek, min.

 

That's the mentality that gives coppers the authority to do whatever they want to whomever they want whenever they want, under the auspices of, "Hey, if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to worry about when I demand you allow me to shove this rubber-gloved fist up your arsehole."

 

Well, maybe as a law-abiding citizen who has done nothing wrong I have no desire to have a copper fisting me... and maybe coppers shouldn't have the power to fist me against my will, whether I've nothing to 'worry about' or not.

 

Go get yourself an 'arse-fisting warrant' after you've shown that you have reason to believe there's something up my arse that you might want to investigate, rather than allowing every fist-happy pig the legal ability to just randomly stop people in the street and fist them for the fun of it.

 

Same goes for pointing your helicopter at my house. I've done nothing wrong, and I have nothing to 'worry about' for my part, but maybe I simply don't want coppers electronically eavesdroppingon my house anyway.

[dave_min]

Id argue that what the cops are doing matters a great deal.

 

In general, yes.

 

But in this case it doesn't really matter if they were going for pizza, they can't be held responsible for the airworthiness of a helicopter.

[Tommy]

 

Hopefully that was tongue in cheek, min.

 

That's the mentality that gives coppers the authority to do whatever they want to whomever they want whenever they want, under the auspices of, "Hey, if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to worry about when I demand you allow me to shove this rubber-gloved fist up your arsehole."

 

Well, maybe as a law-abiding citizen who has done nothing wrong I have no desire to have a copper fisting me... and maybe coppers shouldn't have the power to fist me against my will, whether I've nothing to 'worry about' or not.

 

Go get yourself an 'arse-fisting warrant' after you've shown that you have reason to believe there's something up my arse that you might want to investigate, rather than allowing every fist-happy pig the legal ability to just randomly stop people in the street and fist them for the fun of it.

 

Same goes for pointing your helicopter at my house. I've done nothing wrong, and I have nothing to 'worry about' for my part, but maybe I simply don't want coppers electronically eavesdroppingon my house anyway.

Years ago I asked a cop outside ibrox why the chopper was filming supporters and

got told if you've done nothing wrong you've nothing to worry about.

So aye, my comment was tongue in cheek.

[caledonia]

The people in the bar had done nothing wrong so does this comment really hold true

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Glasgow Green (an obvious choice for a crash landing) is only 2 blocks to the East, so the fact the chopper didnt manage to limp the short distance - coupled with the reported lack of a Mayday call - suggests an immediate loss of power or control. Probably the former, given witneses say the blades werent turning when it came down.

 

I dont think this is the time to criticise the Police, (9 people are dead, with likely at least one more to come), but I think there is sense is asking what the chopper was doing and reflecting whether the flight it was making - in darkness, over a city centre - was really necessary. If you are hovering over a major city, a crash landing will always cause chaos.

 

The helicopter could be heard most days, flying at low altitude over the city. I live near a big M8 junction and often it would come and sit above our neighborhood and the motorway for hours on end. It seemed to me it wasnt doing anything but monitoring the traffic flow. Certainly, given the massive and instrusive racket it makes, (makes the place sound like a jungle drop zone, back in 'Nam), I would be surprised if spying on people was its forte.

 

EDIT - the place where it crashed is actually only a few seconds flying time to the east of where the copter is based (@ heliport next to the SECC),

though glasgow green was nearer for a crash landing.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Not only the lack of fire, but also jet fuel has a very strong smell that is distinctive. Very often at crash sites you hear of " the distinctive smell of fuel". Mentioned in many reports for crashes but not this one.

 

I just find the lack of mention of jet fuel smell in the middle of Glasgow and the lack of fuel interesting

 

Also pics of the blades (usually Carbon fibre) are in remarkably good condition with6ft sections being removed with little if any damage.

 

Good points.

 

You would think the chance of leaking fuel / oil / hydraulic fluid etc in the crash would be quite high*, and surely this would be ignited by the impact/friction, the heat of the engines or by tearing through the electrics in the pub roof.

 

(*Its not a military helicopter and therefore it probably has less physical protection / safety features)

 

OK, I know this is only one example - and different circumstances etc - but remember a chopper crashed into a crane in central London in early 2013?

 

Helicopter explodes after crashing onto construction crane in central London

 

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/helicopter-explodes-after-crashing-into-construction-crane-in-central-londion/1060158/

 

http://metro.co.uk/2013/01/16/helicopter-explodes-after-crashing-into-crane-in-vauxhall-reports-claim-3353959/

 

 

 

 

Its quite a stark difference eh? it was just a dust cloud this time, no fire or explosion.

 

As for the blades being in good nick - that tallys with them having stopped rotation. if they were rotating during the crash, they would all be ruined / smashed off probably. It could be that the blades at the front and the main body of the craft have made the big hole in the roof, and so the blades coming after, at the rear, have rermained relatively undamaged, (having not actually hit the building themselves).

 

My amatuer theory (I have no expertise!) is that there has been a fault with the fuel gauge system and theyve thought they had much more fuel than they actually did.

They have then quite suddenly run out of fuel, thus losing the rotation of the blades.

Some of the blades being in good condition (post crash) agrees with no rotation (no fuel) during the crash (and witnesses verify the lack of rotation).

The lack of mayday call agrees with the idea of it being a very sudden and unexpected problem - no time to react.

The lack of explosion or fire agrees with the idea of having no fuel left to burn.

 

Though perhaps we shouldnt speculate at this time.

[tup]

The police have proven time and again that, like most humans, they are not to be trusted.

 

I agree with Kelt. I think they were up to no good.

 

My experience of the UK police is very bad indeed and I'd be of a mind to question anything they claim.

 

Their silence in this instance speaks volumes.

[ChutneyLove]

There's no procedure or indeed mechanism to 'dump fuel'. Tanks are designed to be 'crashworthy'.

 

And there's no point in either praising or criticising the pilot until we find out what's actually happened.

Wrong CtS. Rotary winged aircraft are fitted with fuel jettison mechanisms - it is absolutely necessary for emergency situations. I was an aircraft engineer in my dim and distant past; have serviced and replaced jettison valves, catalogued fuel disposal etc. Whether or not this was used in this instance is a different matter. If a pilot has time to jettison fuel, they will.

[CtS]

 

 

My amatuer theory (I have no expertise!) is that there has been a fault with the fuel gauge system and theyve thought they had much more fuel than they actually did.

They have then quite suddenly run out of fuel, thus losing the rotation of the blades.

Some of the blades being in good condition (post crash) agrees with no rotation (no fuel) during the crash (and witnesses verify the lack of rotation).

The lack of mayday call agrees with the idea of it being a very sudden and unexpected problem - no time to react.

The lack of explosion or fire agrees with the idea of having no fuel left to burn.

 

Though perhaps we shouldnt speculate at this time.

A pilot doesn't purely rely on what a gauge is telling him, these guys are very intelligent 'system managers' who work in that environment every day, they notice things like fuel quantity discrepancies, they understand the aircraft systems and are utterly professional at all times. I'll be amazed if this is anything to do with fuel.

 

The lack of fire is not surprising, the Vauxhall accident completely destroyed the drive of that aircraft at high altitude, and it fell straight onto a road. In this case the aircraft was intact, and the pub and it's largely wooden structure has broken the fall and prevented a fire. I'm happy to be corrected here but I believe aviation fuel is like diesel and has a relatively high flashpoint.

 

I agree 100% with your final sentence.

[ChutneyLove]

A pilot doesn't purely rely on what a gauge is telling him, these guys are very intelligent 'system managers' who work in that environment every day, they notice things like fuel quantity discrepancies, they understand the aircraft systems and are utterly professional at all times. I'll be amazed if this is anything to do with fuel.

 

The lack of fire is not surprising, the Vauxhall accident completely destroyed the drive of that aircraft at high altitude, and it fell straight onto a road. In this case the aircraft was intact, and the pub and it's largely wooden structure has broken the fall and prevented a fire. I'm happy to be corrected here but I believe aviation fuel is like diesel and has a relatively high flashpoint.

 

I agree 100% with your final sentence.

On this point - it really depends on what type of fuel the aircraft is using. I once had a bet with a colleague that I could put a match out in a beaker of jet fuel. I won the bet. The problem is there are different types of fuel for different types of engine. AvCat is generally as you describe - high flashpoint, needs a mix with air and compression to become combustible at normal temperatures. AvGas on the other hand will light much more easily. If I'd tried to put a match out in that stuff, my colleague and I would have landed up looking like Wile E. Coyote after an unsuccesful attempt lighting his rocket backpack.

[NorthernLights24]

Katie Hopkins in trouble

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/02/katie-hopkins-twitter-glasgow-helicopter-crash-apprentice

 

Silly woman couldn't even read a short two page document properly.

[RUL]

I was thinking that as well? Surely she must have thought 59 was a bit young.

[fifered]

Kelt, I'm normally a big fan of your posts, but you've got this one arse for tit trying to make out they were up to no good. Somebody dismissed the kids on a railway line story. Assuming its true, which it probably will be, what is the safest and quickest way they have of finding those kids? The alternative to a helicopter would be putting a stop on the railway line and getting police to walk down it. A helicopter could check it in minutes. Why does there have to be an agenda with everything?

 

I would agree with redstar, there must be cheaper and safer ways of doing this type of thing these days with drones although the history of authorities use of drones is not good. You'd probably find that if they started using drones there would end up being a huge number in the sky above us almost constantly. Now that would be something to think about.

[Dynamo]

You have to question the police. They're not to be trusted. They tend to have a lack of common sense and a hunger for power too.

[StandFree1982]

Do they really need a guy standing outside of the bar, at 7am in the morning, in the dark, telling us "the latest developments" which they could have told us from a studio?

[tightbreeks]

the coppers are the biggest gang out there. shady, self-serving bellends.

 

independence should mean that the scottish police force should have no ties what so ever to any secret organizations, we'd probably have no police for a while!

[Ke1t]

 

yawn

 

what the hell are these "suspicions" based upon, bearing in mind theres plenty cctv cams to do that role

 

No offence, MT, but you've shown no aptitude in the past for understanding things that have been clearly explained to you, and any subsequent attempt would be wasted effort on my part.

 

A lesson well learned, I trust you'll agree.

 

[Bluto10]

The police have proven time and again that, like most humans, they are not to be trusted.

 

I agree with Kelt. I think they were up to no good.

 

My experience of the UK police is very bad indeed and I'd be of a mind to question anything they claim.

 

Their silence in this instance speaks volumes.

 

so you keep saying

 

As I said already serious questions need to be asked of the police.

 

They've successfully avoided these so far.

 

I'm no fan of the police, in fact I'd go as far as to say I hate them.

 

wow. dinna hold back min.

 

 

the police were flying a chopper.

big deal.

you dinna see me gettin all precious when a dutch rozzer overtakes me on his mountain bike or segway.

[Ke1t]

 

offence not taken

 

you've made a massive leap there assuming they were up to no good

 

folk into conspiracy theories are folk with mundane lives, or at least, unfulfilled lives

 

mine is fully filled

 

cheers

 

Q.E.D.

 

[Ke1t]

 

It had been up looking for people who were reportedly loitering/ tresspassing/ fucking around on a a nearby busy rail track.

 

Well, I guess they're not going to say, "Oh yeah, we were pointing our shit at people's flats using FLIR to see if anyone was growing weed."

 

Helicopter full of coppers seems like overkil to shoo some kids off a railway line, in my day it would have been a copper in a Panda car going, "Oy, you kids... fuck off oot o it!" but if that's the story they're going with then fair enough.

[gla5gowdon]

 

Well, I guess they're not going to say, "Oh yeah, we were pointing our shit at people's flats using FLIR to see if anyone was growing weed."

 

Helicopter full of coppers seems like overkil to shoo some kids off a railway line, in my day it would have been a copper in a Panda car going, "Oy, you kids... fuck off oot o it!" but if that's the story they're going with then fair enough.

 

Would hardly say two officers and a civilian pilot was overkill. There have been a lot of reports regarding cable theft which also has safety implications.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-23513608

 

That being said, nobody knows what they were doing yet and it shouldn't really matter. If a bridge collapsed and landed on a police car, would they have automatically been spying?

[Old Wing Stand]

See a few people on Facebook getting in a state about this woman some them I know are big fans of Frankie Boyle, me I think they are both a pair of idiots !

 

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/353951/This-Morning-have-no-plans-to-hire-Katie-Hopkins-after-Glasgow-tragedy-tweet

[gla5gowdon]

 

exactly

 

guys a moron

 

I usually enjoy kelt's posts but I reckon he's either on the wind up or paranoid.

 

Who could blame him? He lives in a country which contains the HQs of the FBI, CIA and NSA.

 

[Henry]

Billy Connolly said he was “proud to be a Glaswegian” in the aftermath of The Clutha helicopter crash as he visited the scene of the tragedy yesterday.

The 71-year-old comedian, who grew up in the city and performed in the pub as a musician, said he had “many happy times in there”.

Nick Clegg, the Deputy Prime Minister, also came to pay his respects yesterday and said the rest of Britain had been inspired by how the city had coped when a police helicopter plunged into a city centre pub on Friday night.

His comments came as a £40,000 appeal fund was launched to help survivors and the families of the nine victims.

Connolly laid a bouquet of flowers yesterday with a note that read “Rest in Peace friends, Billy Connolly”.

He said he heard about the crash while in New York and wanted to pay his respects to those who died.

“It’s very sad but it means quite a lot to me. I have played in all of these pubs. The Clutha was a good music pub. They didn’t mind banjo players, which makes a change,” he said.

“I had many happy times in there. Glasgow has really risen to the occasion. I have never heard so many nice things about Glasgow.

“I had to do something; I couldn’t just let it pass though I have never done anything like this before. Everybody’s talking about how well Glasgow coped. I was very, very proud to be a Glaswegian.”

Mr Clegg praised the “extraordinary spontaneous manner in which everyone worked together” and said: “You can try and prepare for emergencies like this as much as you like but the greatest ingredient is community spirit.”

During his visit the Deputy Prime Minister met emergency workers, survivors and members of the local community, as well as making a visit to St Andrew’s Cathedral, where nine candles were lit on the altar, one for each of the victims. Afterwards he said: “Everybody came together … a city that has its fair share of divisions over time has actually come together in a remarkably united way and that has shone through to the rest of the country.”

Glasgow City Council has launched the Clutha Appeal Fund with a donation of £20,000 – matched by another £20,000 from the Scottish Government. The fund is being put in place to help the families of the nine as well as those injured.

Sadie Docherty, the Lord Provost who launched the appeal, said: “Around the world people have admired the courage shown by ordinary Glaswegians whose first instinct when tragedy struck was to run towards danger to help those in peril. Today that desire to help is still strong and the Clutha Appeal Fund will give the city an opportunity to make sure the care, compassion and solidarity it has shown in the last few days continues.”

[Old Wing Stand]

I think people in other towns and cities up and down the country would have done the same thing as the punters in Glasgow it's called human nature

[Clydeside_Sheep]

I think people in other towns and cities up and down the country would have done the same thing as the punters in Glasgow it's called human nature

Agreed, anytime there has been an accident or disaster, passers by always rush to help.

 

As individuals, people may be more hestitant at responding to some incident, but when there are lots of members of the public in such a situation, they all take courage from one another.