Ukraine

[Ke1t]

1 hour ago, CCB III said:

Of course there are sides.

 

1. Im on the side of the ordinary people throughout the world, who'd like to live a decent life, have full autonomy over their political situations, and have enough food to eat/drink etc. That's what most people want. 

 

Im against politicians, corporations, etc etc that seek to disempower these people in pursuit of profit, and if you really chalk the world up, that's largely what every war, every dispute, every political talking point is. How do we (the majority) wrestle back the control from these sociopathic, murderous psychos that are rewarded with authority by our incredibly outdated political systems? 
 

2. I never said I was against killing. I understand from a pragmatic standpoint it's sometimes necessary. Not all of the USAs standpoints are "pragmatic" though, more so they are ideological. Any nation that has a fuck ton of natural resources they want to take off the free market and nationalise? Nope, we must coup. It's absolutely fuck all to do with freedom, and everything to do with self preservation. We're the good guys tho cuz nationalised energy and stuff is bad mkay, now pay for your cancer treatment you fat fuck or we're turfing you on the street. 
 

3. I object to you calling my assertions shallow. IMO, they are anything but. In some situations, deaths are necessary, but in most, it's totally futile. 
 

4. Ask the people of Iran/Iraq what they think of American freedom and liberation. 
 

5. I totally object to you suggesting my assertion that governments working on behalf of corporations meddling in other countries is bad being an "idealistic point of view" but without a hint of irony in the next sentence you say "friendly to ideology to secure freedom closer to hand."

6. The idea that the USA or any of the imperialist powers that operate in our world today give a fuck about freedom is truly childish. It's blood and guts for dollars and cents. 
 

7. We hardly live a in a fucking democracy. The UK is ran to the benefit of about 1% of its peoples. The "free press" ensures that anyone keen to address this issue is seen away and the proles stay misinformed, after all, the media is owned by the wealthy, why would they want that challenged? 
 

8. And in America, you get to choose between two parties that are about 95% the same, backed by huge corporations that don't give a fuck about the planet, its inhabitants, or namely, who actually wins. That same corporate owned media won't tell you anything useful to your own situation either. 
 

9. But that's democracy. It's great. We all stay misinformed and we just crack on serving the oligarchs and oil CEOs that have long back pocketed the entire political system in western countries. 
 

10. Sure is worth fighting for 

 

 

 

1. Then it seems you favour the Democratic model. In theocracies you won't be able to worship, or not worship as you wish (See Iran). In authoritarian regimes you may not have access to food at all, never mind the foods you want to eat (See N.Korea and soviet union). Democracies protect your right to worship as you wish and usually don't starve you to death. 

2. I didn't say you did say you were against killing, I was using killing to highlight Idealism vs Pragmatism. Most Democracies don't charge for medical care. 

3. Idealistic arguments are shallow. Your argument has been largely, if not exclusively, based on idealism.  To wit; They're all murderous and greedy, therefore I won't support either. The implication being that a regime meeting your ideological expectations is the one you'll support. This is an idealistic mindset, not pragmatic. 

4. I know what they think. There was a united Sunni, Shi'a uprising against the American led invasion, probably the first time in recent history they've hated a common enemy more than each other. But I already alluded to this, so your (rhetorical) question has previously been addressed. 

5. Nothing ironic about it. Pragmatic fucking over of minor foreign powers to secure Truth, Justice, and the American Way is sop. 

6. I'd agree with you if that's what I actually said. But I didn't. I've previously said the Western powers are as free as nations have been, that's not to say they're particularly free. but they're a fuck sight freer than theocracies or authoritarian regimes. 

7. No, we factually live in democracies. Where people have the franchise to vote for their party and, usually, the winner forms a government. That's what democracy is. All the other stuff we assume is attached to democracy, like Truth, Justice, and the (insert country) way are the results of things like constitutions and Magna Cartas. Your preferred level of freedom isn't hard-coded into democracy. 

8. In America we get to choose between multiple parties or none at all. The fact that the big two dominate is hardly unique. Look at the UK or the SPFL. 

9. No, that's Capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system which in the West funnels money to the rich,. Democracy is a political system which allows you to vote for the clown of your choosing. 

10. When you look at the realistic alternatives, yeah, it kinda is. 

[Guest Grays Babylon 1875]

56 minutes ago, Ke1t said:

 

A limited exchange where mebbes a few million get vapourised seems more likely. 

 

Wales and Glasgow please. 

Thank you. 

[Ke1t]

13 minutes ago, Grays Babylon 1875 said:

Wales and Glasgow please. 

Thank you. 

No-one could argue with that. 

[Guest Grays Babylon 1875]

8 minutes ago, Ke1t said:

No-one could argue with that. 

Perth, Australia. 

[Ohjimmyjimmy]

1 hour ago, RedArmyFakshun said:

that is either deep fishing... or total delusion

either way, i doff my hat

Just you keep thinking what the media want you to think bud.

[CCB III]

1 hour ago, Ke1t said:

1. Then it seems you favour the Democratic model. In theocracies you won't be able to worship, or not worship as you wish (See Iran). In authoritarian regimes you may not have access to food at all, never mind the foods you want to eat (See N.Korea and soviet union). Democracies protect your right to worship as you wish and usually don't starve you to death. 

2. I didn't say you did say you were against killing, I was using killing to highlight Idealism vs Pragmatism. Most Democracies don't charge for medical care. 

3. Idealistic arguments are shallow. Your argument has been largely, if not exclusively, based on idealism.  To wit; They're all murderous and greedy, therefore I won't support either. The implication being that a regime meeting your ideological expectations is the one you'll support. This is an idealistic mindset, not pragmatic. 

4. I know what they think. There was a united Sunni, Shi'a uprising against the American led invasion, probably the first time in recent history they've hated a common enemy more than each other. But I already alluded to this, so your (rhetorical) question has previously been addressed. 

5. Nothing ironic about it. Pragmatic fucking over of minor foreign powers to secure Truth, Justice, and the American Way is sop. 

6. I'd agree with you if that's what I actually said. But I didn't. I've previously said the Western powers are as free as nations have been, that's not to say they're particularly free. but they're a fuck sight freer than theocracies or authoritarian regimes. 

7. No, we factually live in democracies. Where people have the franchise to vote for their party and, usually, the winner forms a government. That's what democracy is. All the other stuff we assume is attached to democracy, like Truth, Justice, and the (insert country) way are the results of things like constitutions and Magna Cartas. Your preferred level of freedom isn't hard-coded into democracy. 

8. In America we get to choose between multiple parties or none at all. The fact that the big two dominate is hardly unique. Look at the UK or the SPFL. 

9. No, that's Capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system which in the West funnels money to the rich,. Democracy is a political system which allows you to vote for the clown of your choosing. 

10. When you look at the realistic alternatives, yeah, it kinda is. 

1.) I always favour universal suffrage. I wish we had more than the centralised shit we have at the moment, that largely fails to address the specific needs of any one place. Your point about autocratic states is irrelevant, I'm not advocating for them. In any case, people wouldn't call Russia or China democracies, but very few people starve there compared to other parts of the world. Just a thought. 
 

2.) A competent democracy doesn't charge for medical care, no.

 

3.) "They are all murderous and greedy, but I don't support either." Correct. But, I'm pragmatic enough to have a side I'd prefer win, dependent on the circumstance. In the case of Ukraine, despite not seeing the issue as simple as "Putin is bad" I still support America/Europes efforts to aid Ukraines sovereignty. When there's an Old Firm on, I don't actively support either team but if hard pushed, I'd support Celtic over Rangers, such is my burning hatred for the latter. 
 

4.) Good ol' American freedom. Just a million dead brown people, so long as Halliburtons profits were increased!

 

5.) Pragmatism is to unseat democratically elected leaders? I mean it's pragmatic if you're saying they are doing it for capital gain, from their POV,  but if it's for spreading democracy or some such other shit they like to say they do, then it's just hypocrisy 

 

6.) We're losing more freedoms by the minute, as we ascent to the late stage of this particular economic model. In the UK anyway, the two PM candidates have vowed to ban the ability to strike. A hallmark of any solid democracy. Our world seems to be getting smaller, and sometimes I wonder if it's looking out too much that's doing it, sometimes I think it's not looking out enough, I dunno. Our powers of protest have also been diminished here in the UK. 
 

7.) I think we should raise the bar of what we can call a democracy then, it has to have more checkpoints than simply "well...you can vote" otherwise you just end up with lazy, indefensible political systems like the one in America. It's really the bare minimum in terms of democracy. 
 

8.) Not about whether it's unique, just pointing out that in my opinion, it's an illusion of choice, largely, both parties represent the same interests, and both fail to tackle domestic problems, because they don't want to. 
 

9.) "The purpose of the state is to mediate class antagonisms" - Lenin. This narrow idea of democracy we've adopted under capitalism, is almost inseparable from the economic system itself. The democracy, as we use it, is used to directly funnel that wealth you speak of, and convince us it's in our best interests to do so. This version of democracy solely exists so that we don't cut the likes of Jeff Bezos' head off. 
 

10.) Yeah, probably is worth it. But, our options aren't this pitiful version of capitalist democracy or reverting back to feudalism, we can of course, push forward with new ideas. 
 

Anyway, my arguments aren't shallow. Just because I refuse to pick a particular side to back in the murderous,  bloody hell scape of geopolitics, doesn't mean I'm not pragmatic enough to be able to have a preference when the shit goes down. 
 

It's not shallow to be dissatisfied with the state of the world. 
 

It is shallow to talk about a war that's misplaced millions, killed thousands, as some sort of strategic army game. 
 

I don't understand how can you have a rock on for the sovereignty of Ukraine, but appear indifferent to American meddling in say, Venezuela. 
 

Its contradictory. Let nations determine themselves I say, only go to war in self defence. 
 

I know, I'm a crazy idealist!

[Dom Sullivan]

^^^fucking hell

[Guest Grays Babylon 1875]

All the worlds problems resolved on a wanky sub forum of a shitey sub standard Scottish football club by an angsty teenage coke head and a belligerent failed writer. 

Bloody love the internet. 

[Guest Grays Babylon 1875]

Get some.   Get some.  Get some. 

Lets get ready for these fucking Russian pigs. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-62356696

[maryhilldon]

Nobody's actually reading these long winded posts are they? Apart from Consi and Kelt?

[Guest Grays Babylon 1875]

..

[cheesepipes]

4 hours ago, CCB III said:

Give it a go 

Bla bla bla poofters and lemons are murdered.

Capitalism etc, socialism etc etc, politics.

Jet black yellow eyed men from Sudan, waffle waffle are local to Barrow in Furness etc etc.

[cheesepipes]

25 minutes ago, maryhilldon said:

Nobody's actually reading these long winded posts are they? Apart from Consi and Kelt?

I don't think so.

[cheesepipes]

This Ukraine thing has passed its sell by date now.

The young ones who pretended to care are wrapped up in Love Island and the middle aged white men are gearing up for the new fitba season.

[CCB III]

6 hours ago, cheesepipes said:

Bla bla bla poofters and lemons are murdered.

Capitalism etc, socialism etc etc, politics.

Jet black yellow eyed men from Sudan, waffle waffle are local to Barrow in Furness etc etc.

That's not a haiku!!!!!

[cheesepipes]

1 minute ago, CCB III said:

That's not a haiku!!!!!

Fuck knows, I've not played Street Fighter in over 25 years.

[CCB III]

4 hours ago, Bad_Mobby said:

Blah blah blah Scotland should be independent blah blah blah……no wait a minute, I just watched a video of some cockney rail worker, Scotland should stay with the guffs blah blah 

Never changed my stance on independence, min.

 

Inclusion in the EU is what I changed my stance on. 
 

Or rather, I'm reconsidering. 

[CCB III]

7 hours ago, Grays Babylon 1875 said:

All the worlds problems resolved on a wanky sub forum of a shitey sub standard Scottish football club by an angsty teenage coke head and a belligerent failed writer. 

Bloody love the internet. 

Point taken. 
 

 

[Ke1t]

If you don't like reading the long posts then don't read the long posts.

Sorted.

[maryhilldon]

12 minutes ago, Ke1t said:

If you don't like reading the long posts then don't read the long posts.

Sorted.

?

[Ando]

10 hours ago, cheesepipes said:

This Ukraine thing has passed its sell by date now.

The young ones who pretended to care are wrapped up in Love Island and the middle aged white men are gearing up for the new fitba season.

What are the virtue-signalling spastics being told to pretend to care about now? They rinsed the virtue-signalling Facebook profile picture frame changers for all they're worth for daft face nappies, toxic clotshots, staying home to "protect the NHS", "standing with Ukraine", and fucking monkeypox or whatever the latest made-up terror-peril is. Are we back to "terrorists" yet?

[Poodler]

sky news trying to get themselves cancelled clearly 

 

 

[Ke1t]

20 minutes ago, Poodler said:

sky news trying to get themselves cancelled clearly 

 

 

Sky's been shilling for Putin for a fair amount of time. 

Best ignored. 

[manboobs109]

Do we honestly think Putin will retreat? Surely he'd rather nuke them than get beat?

[Ke1t]

26 minutes ago, manboobs109 said:

Do we honestly think Putin will retreat? Surely he'd rather nuke them than get beat?

I think the ramifications of popping a nuke in Ukraine would go far beyond what even Vlad wants to take on. 

What would he target? 

He hits Kiev and you've a million casualties. The fallout (no pun intended) of using a nuke on a European country would be the end of him. 

There's also no military target worth hitting with a nuke. 

Even losing Crimea to Ukrainian counterattacks probably wouldn't move him to launching a nuke... he'd be more likely to order a general mobilisation. 

Edit: Course, the midget's on the roids, so anything's possible. 

 

 

[maryhilldon]

AMERICA. FUCK YEAH!!

[Ke1t]

1 hour ago, maryhilldon said:

AMERICA. FUCK YEAH!!

FUCK YEAH, AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

[RedArmyFakshun]

Donbass is over

Open the pubs

[tutankamun]

1 hour ago, RedArmyFakshun said:

Donbass is over

Open the pubs

Taiwan says ‘hold my beer’ ?

[CCB III]