Israel/gaza Thread

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Who are we to point the finger at Israel?

 

You would think our own country was not in the habit of fabricating lies as an excuse for war, leading to 100s of 1000s of civilian deaths. I think, to some extent, palestine is in the news to detract from:

 

- the growing chaos in iraq, which is ultimately a result of our own intervention there

- the fact that putin has run rings around the west over ukraine

 

And Israeli caused palestinian deaths will be a fraction of UK/US caused civilian deaths in Iraq, afghanistan etc.

 

And look at our own record of dealing with insurgents - it was only a few decades ago that (eg) mass internment of innocent civilians, without trial, was practiced in the UK, and, in a single incident, the army publicly murdered 14 unarmed civilians on a civil rights march.

 

Of course, these things are repugnant no matter who does them but I dont see that we have the moral high ground here.

[The Hulk]

 

I think the Israelis are victims as well.

 

The truth is that they are. But it is extremely hard to sympathise with them while they continue to build illegal settlements in the West Bank to the extent that the West Bank now no longer really exists while the international community do nothing, refuse to keep their borders within the 1968 armistice line and continuously and aggressively bully the weaker indigenous* Palestinian people.

 

It is not just a land dispute. What makes this a religious war is the dogmatic Jewish refusal to countenance that they do not "belong" there, instead believing this to be "their" land because they inhabited it 5,000 years ago when Moses took the commandments on Mount Sinai or some such.

 

* I say indigenous, the Jews consider themselves to be originated here, which may well be true. Palestinians seem to have been considered the runts of the arab litter by the west for the last couple of centuries.

[Crossbow]

 

Its a land dispute, not a religious war.

 

Yes, muslims hate the jews - but then muslims hate everyone!

 

That's a little naive isn't it given the fact that the one of the main reasons for the existence of the Jewish state is the promise God gave to Abraham (although there is a fairly good chance that the promised land is on the west coast of Saudi not far from Mecca).

 

Jews and muslims got on pretty well before the founding of Israel. They have sadly both polarised since - both blame the other and probably rightly the Palestinians blame the West for their failure in the setting up of the Jewish state.

 

Religion is the fuel that causes the war to be polarised and burst into flame as both sides use it as part of their justification - if both sides were lets say Buddhist/Hindi/Wiccan/Jedi do you really think they'd still be fighting?

[spamspamspam]

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Jonathan Miller‏@millerC4

#c4news #Gaza The Writing on the Wall: I want to tweet out again this pic I took on the West Bank. So poignant.

 

[minijc]

Some will find this of interest http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel

[spamspamspam]

Who are we to point the finger at Israel?

 

You would think our own country was not in the habit of fabricating lies as an excuse for war, leading to 100s of 1000s of civilian deaths. I think, to some extent, palestine is in the news to detract from:

 

- the growing chaos in iraq, which is ultimately a result of our own intervention there

- the fact that putin has run rings around the west over ukraine

 

And Israeli caused palestinian deaths will be a fraction of UK/US caused civilian deaths in Iraq, afghanistan etc.

 

And look at our own record of dealing with insurgents - it was only a few decades ago that (eg) mass internment of innocent civilians, without trial, was practiced in the UK, and, in a single incident, the army publicly murdered 14 unarmed civilians on a civil rights march.

 

Of course, these things are repugnant no matter who does them but I dont see that we have the moral high ground here.

 

 

We are the ones that should be pointing the finger because it was our country that made this mess in the first place. Guilt for turning a blind eye through WWII created this terrorist state and money from both the UK and US then helped make sure it was there to stay.

 

Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Israel... all down to UK and US meddling in affairs we have no reason to be involved in. We claim its for our own national security, its no more than a modern crusade. Probably why you dont actually see it as such a one sided battle, it'll be warming that Catholic heart of yours, taking back Bethlehem in a that.

 

Do you know how many Israelis died from Hamas rockets in 2012 v how many Palestinians died at the hands of Israel in the same period?

Do you know how many of these bombs the Israelis claim are hitting their territory daily are actually hitting anything at all?

 

I'll give you a clue none. No Israelis died in 2012 because of bomb attacks by Hamas. None. They have a very sophisticated defence grid that stops these bombs, bombs isnt the right word either as their are no explosive charges in them so we'll call them stones fired by a bit of petrol from now on if you dont mind. Stones.

 

It would be like you and me squaring up. I've got body armour and a sub-machine gun, you have a twig and nothing but your boxers on. I have full mobility, you have one hand tied behind your back and your legs tied together.

 

Mind you, being a unionist and a no man its easy to see why you then claim we cant hold a moral high ground. We can. Our government, thats the Scottish government has condemned these attacks by Israel and quite clearly state they must stop. Your chosen government, the UK government, they are in bed with Israel, the leaders of the Conservative party are also leaders in the Friends of Israel group. They not only sit and watch but cheer on these war crimes and atrocities.

 

Scotland did not back Iraq, look what happened there. Scotland does not back Israel, look whats happening there. We offer to send doctors to Palestine (Scotland), the UK offer military hardware to Israel.

 

Not in my fucking name.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

 

That's a little naive isn't it given the fact that the one of the main reasons for the existence of the Jewish state is the promise God gave to Abraham (although there is a fairly good chance that the promised land is on the west coast of Saudi not far from Mecca).

 

Jews and muslims got on pretty well before the founding of Israel. They have sadly both polarised since - both blame the other and probably rightly the Palestinians blame the West for their failure in the setting up of the Jewish state.

 

Religion is the fuel that causes the war to be polarised and burst into flame as both sides use it as part of their justification - if both sides were lets say Buddhist/Hindi/Wiccan/Jedi do you really think they'd still be fighting?

 

Its fundamentally a land dispute.

 

After ww2 the jews fled industrial extermination - they had to go somewhere. Their religion only influenced the choice of location - it didnt prompt the move, as they were quite happy to live elsewhere (as they had done for a long time) until people started gassing them.

 

Odds are, wherever they went there would have been a dispute with the settled populace.

 

You say they wouldnt fight if they were all the same religion - and yet the two halves of islam (sunni and shia) hate each other and always fight, and there has been any number of intra-christian wars during history.

 

So I think that, even if they were co-religionists, they would still fight - because they are fighting over who controls a piece of land, not religious concepts.

[Poodler]

 

 

We are the ones that should be pointing the finger because it was our country that made this mess in the first place. Guilt for turning a blind eye through WWII created this terrorist state and money from both the UK and US then helped make sure it was there to stay.

 

Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Israel... all down to UK and US meddling in affairs we have no reason to be involved in. We claim its for our own national security, its no more than a modern crusade. Probably why you dont actually see it as such a one sided battle, it'll be warming that Catholic heart of yours, taking back Bethlehem in a that.

 

Do you know how many Israelis died from Hamas rockets in 2012 v how many Palestinians died at the hands of Israel in the same period?

Do you know how many of these bombs the Israelis claim are hitting their territory daily are actually hitting anything at all?

 

I'll give you a clue none. No Israelis died in 2012 because of bomb attacks by Hamas. None. They have a very sophisticated defence grid that stops these bombs, bombs isnt the right word either as their are no explosive charges in them so we'll call them stones fired by a bit of petrol from now on if you dont mind. Stones.

 

It would be like you and me squaring up. I've got body armour and a sub-machine gun, you have a twig and nothing but your boxers on. I have full mobility, you have one hand tied behind your back and your legs tied together.

 

Mind you, being a unionist and a no man its easy to see why you then claim we cant hold a moral high ground. We can. Our government, thats the Scottish government has condemned these attacks by Israel and quite clearly state they must stop. Your chosen government, the UK government, they are in bed with Israel, the leaders of the Conservative party are also leaders in the Friends of Israel group. They not only sit and watch but cheer on these war crimes and atrocities.

 

Scotland did not back Iraq, look what happened there. Scotland does not back Israel, look whats happening there. We offer to send doctors to Palestine (Scotland), the UK offer military hardware to Israel.

 

Not in my fucking name.

[Crossbow]

 

Its fundamentally a land dispute.

 

After ww2 the jews fled industrial extermination - they had to go somewhere. Their religion only influenced the choice of location - it didnt prompt the move, as they were quite happy to live elsewhere (as they had done for a long time) until people started gassing them.

 

Odds are, wherever they went there would have been a dispute with the settled populace.

 

You say they wouldnt fight if they were all the same religion - and yet the two halves of islam (sunni and shia) hate each other and always fight, and there has been any number of intra-christian wars during history.

 

So I think that, even if they were co-religionists, they would still fight - because they are fighting over who controls a piece of land, not religious concepts.

 

The fighting is a polarised dispute - brought on by religious conviction and contention - you are correct that there can be a conflict within religions but that is still in essence a religious dispute - I wasn't so unwise to suggest Christianity or Islam as models of peaceful religions even if some of the precepts might be.

 

The point in question is that the Palestinians being Muslim have dragged in the rest of the Islamic world into the territorial dispute - Zionism says it is there land because the Torah (I think) says so - as much of Israel politic is Zionist led then it is hard to suggest there is no religious basis for the dispute - if that were not the case the whole thing might have moved more peaceably. The agendas of the great powers is also a huge factor in this.

 

Indeed even is Israel did not currently exist there would be Jewish organisations struggling to make it so because of the promise of God. Religious conviction and the backing of God, Yahweh, Jehovah & Allah permit a lot of brutality from human beings.

[spamspamspam]

 

Its fundamentally a land dispute.

 

After ww2 the jews fled industrial extermination - they had to go somewhere.

Your idea of history is skewed to fuck min.

 

They didnt flee after WWII, they were released and allowed to come out of hiding.

Where should they have went? Home, their actual home, where they originally came from. Poland, Germany, France... It was only the Nazi's that were hunting them, the French etc were not. Nothing stopping them returning to their houses and homes they were taken from apart from memories and the thought of going to the promised land, land we promised them and that wasnt ours to give away.

 

Its not a land dispute, its a fucking land grab.

A dispute would suggest that there is no genocide, no cleansing, no forced expulsions, no settlements moving in the day the Palestinians are cleared from whatever land they have left for Jews to then move into the rubble left where the Palestinian homes used to be. Sometimes, if the troops do their jobs properly (in the eyes of Israel) the Jews are moving right into houses that have just been cleared.

 

This, IMO, has nothing to do with religion per se. This is all about a bastard country looking to force its right to exist when it has none. This is about a group of people that are so fucking bitter they cannot see they have turned into everything they are bitter about. The worst part about it all though is if you have the audacity to put your head above the parapet and dare to say anything at all against it you are then branded anti-Semitic and called a Nazi. Just ask Frankie Boyle or Dieudonne, his jokes about the parallels between Israeli leaders and Nazi Germany were not only banned from the BBC political program they were on but vilified by the BBC and press as anti Jewish when they are in fact no more than a very unfunny observation.

"I've been studying Israeli army martial arts. I now know 16 ways to kick a Palestinian woman in the back.

People think that the Middle East is very complex but I have an analogy that sums it up quite well. If you imagine that Palestine is a big cake, well … that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew."

Frankie is now a racist, anti Semitic, disgust according to the BBC. For that?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Your idea of history is skewed to fuck min.

 

They didnt flee after WWII, they were released and allowed to come out of hiding.

WTF are you talking about? They fled to israel following WW2.

 

Jews had been immigrating to the area since the mid-30s, but it was really the holocaust and subsequent matters (eg the 1946 pogrom in poland) which caused the biggest waves of people going there.

Where should they have went? Home, their actual home, where they originally came from. Poland, Germany, France... It was only the Nazi's that were hunting them, the French etc were not. Nothing stopping them returning to their houses and homes they were taken from apart from memories and the thought of going to the promised land, land we promised them and that wasnt ours to give away.

 

It wasnt just the Nazis. I have already mentioned the 1946 pogrom in poland.

 

All of europe was hostile towards jews, to some (often large) extent. Everywhere the Germans went, they were met by enthusiastic local volunteers to help round up / murder the jews.

 

It would have been the exact same here too, had we been conquered.

 

The worth of the Jews in the eyes of the allies can be seen via their complete inaction to disrupt the holocaust. (and subsequent attempts to gloss over this via pointing the finger at the organisation which did the most to help the jews - the Catholic Church).

 

You cant deny that the jews have a historical claim on the land - but that doesnt justify mistreating palestinians.

 

Israel isnt going to disappear and it isnt going to be destroyed (it has repeatedly trounced the local muslim nations who have attacked it in the past).

 

The only way out of this is via dialogue and being reasonable.

 

Observing their behaviour across the globe, I dont think modern day muslims have the capacity to be reasonable.

 

Look at this from america, do these people seem reasonable to you?

 

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/07/miama-pro-hamas-demo-khybar-khybar-oh-jews-the-armies-of-muhammad-are-coming/

 

The more i think of it, when you consider how muslim nations treat non-muslims across the world - murdering them, denying them even basic rights, forcing them to pay protection money, constantly harassing and bullying them, treating them lower than animals etc..........

 

..............I cant help but think that we hear altogether too much about palestine.

 

At the end of the day, Palestine is a "fashionable" cause - which is why I take little interest.

 

A lot of people are a lot worse off than palestinians, and very often at the hands of muslims - but the concerned hipsters who are so upset about israel dont seem to care about them.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

its no more than a modern crusade.

Excuse me - it is the Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church who declares crusades, not you.

[The Boofon]

How did Tel Aviv get on in their match last week?

 

They lost 3-0 in the 1st leg but I'd fancy a game against the cunts after we beat Sociedad.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

The fighting is a polarised dispute - brought on by religious conviction and contention - you are correct that there can be a conflict within religions but that is still in essence a religious dispute - I wasn't so unwise to suggest Christianity or Islam as models of peaceful religions even if some of the precepts might be.

 

The point in question is that the Palestinians being Muslim have dragged in the rest of the Islamic world into the territorial dispute - Zionism says it is there land because the Torah (I think) says so - as much of Israel politic is Zionist led then it is hard to suggest there is no religious basis for the dispute - if that were not the case the whole thing might have moved more peaceably. The agendas of the great powers is also a huge factor in this.

I see it as a simple land dispute.

 

The only genuine religious contribution is that regarding why the jews think israel is their home.

 

It isnt a fundamentally religious conflict because it is land ownership which will resolve the issue, not religious concept.

 

I do agree that the involvement of muslims has roped in other muslims - but then, muslims do not peacefully coexist with anyone.

 

If they didnt have the beef over the land then - lets be honest - they would just have some other beef instead.

 

They would be happy to completely invent some issue to hate israel over. They frequently do this as a pretext to persecute individuals as it is.

 

I think you are right to mention the agenda of the global powers. I think that is the crux here. This situation obviously suits america.

Indeed even is Israel did not currently exist there would be Jewish organisations struggling to make it so because of the promise of God. Religious conviction and the backing of God, Yahweh, Jehovah & Allah permit a lot of brutality from human beings.

Human beings are brutal, but its a mistake to think that religion inspires "worse" violence than any other conviction or system.

 

How many millions went off to their deaths in ww1, purely because some guy shot some other guy, in some small, far-off country? (A religious conflict almost looks respectable in comparison, given at least the combatants are fighting for their own deeply held convictions.)

[spamspamspam]

WTF are you talking about? They fled to israel following WW2.

 

Jews had been immigrating to the area since the mid-30s, but it was really the holocaust and subsequent matters (eg the 1946 pogrom in poland) which caused the biggest waves of people going there.

 

It wasnt just the Nazis. I have already mentioned the 1946 pogrom in poland.

 

All of europe was hostile towards jews, to some (often large) extent. Everywhere the Germans went, they were met by enthusiastic local volunteers to help round up / murder the jews.

 

It would have been the exact same here too, had we been conquered.

 

The worth of the Jews in the eyes of the allies can be seen via their complete inaction to disrupt the holocaust. (and subsequent attempts to gloss over this via pointing the finger at the organisation which did the most to help the jews - the Catholic Church).

 

You cant deny that the jews have a historical claim on the land - but that doesnt justify mistreating palestinians.

 

Israel isnt going to disappear and it isnt going to be destroyed (it has repeatedly trounced the local muslim nations who have attacked it in the past).

 

The only way out of this is via dialogue and being reasonable.

 

Observing their behaviour across the globe, I dont think modern day muslims have the capacity to be reasonable.

 

Look at this from america, do these people seem reasonable to you?

 

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2014/07/miama-pro-hamas-demo-khybar-khybar-oh-jews-the-armies-of-muhammad-are-coming/

 

The more i think of it, when you consider how muslim nations treat non-muslims across the world - murdering them, denying them even basic rights, forcing them to pay protection money, constantly harassing and bullying them, treating them lower than animals etc..........

 

..............I cant help but think that we hear altogether too much about palestine.

 

At the end of the day, Palestine is a "fashionable" cause - which is why I take little interest.

 

A lot of people are a lot worse off than palestinians, and very often at the hands of muslims - but the concerned hipsters who are so upset about israel dont seem to care about them.

 

I said they could go home, they had no reason bar promises from the UK government that the land around Jerusalem would be theirs. They could've just as easily went home to where they came from.

Poland was down to communism, as I'm sure you know. Communist state, against religion in general and used propaganda to oust the Jews from Poland.

Dialogue? When you consider the last ceasefire was brokered between Egypt and Israel with no Hamas involvement whatsoever its obvious dialogue isnt something Israel is interested in.

 

Muslims, reasonable? WTF! Would you be reasonable after your family had been killed, your house blown to fuck, everything taken from you, no clean water, no medical aid allowed through to help your kids after yet another part of your country has been flattened? Fuck right off.

If that was happening here I'd be 'terrorist number 1' I'd be fighting for my country, my right to exist. To say you wouldnt do the same is gobshite, we all would.

 

Fashionable? Its a long fucking fashion then. People have been putting pressure on the UK government as long as I can remember. I remember all the news about Arafat in the 80's and the pressure the UK government was under then to get properly involved and assist, nothing has changed though, our government still sits by and cheers while hospitals and schools are bombed. The same excuses are being used 30 years later...

 

Oh, sorry. How dare people make a noise about war crimes and atrocities in Palestine when there are others happening in Iraq, for example.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Scotland did not back Iraq, look what happened there.

Scotland bears as much blame for the iraq catastrophy as the rest of the UK.

 

It was the darling of the Scots, the Labour party, which took us to iraq and they did so under scottish leadership (blair and brown are both scots).

the UK offer military hardware to Israel.

Israel has its own highly sophisticated defence industry and they produce better arnaments than does the uk.

 

Israel buys mostly components from the UK, stuff which they could buy anywhere.

 

You cant say we are military supporting them, just because we sold them a circuit board for a radar, or tyres for their land rovers.

[spamspamspam]

Scotland bears as much blame for the iraq catastrophy as the rest of the UK.

 

It was the darling of the Scots, the Labour party, which took us to iraq and they did so under scottish leadership (blair and brown are both scots).Israel has its own highly sophisticated defence industry and they produce better arnaments than does the uk.

 

Israel buys mostly components from the UK, stuff which they could buy anywhere.

 

You cant say we are military supporting them, just because we sold them a circuit board for a radar, or tyres for their land rovers.

 

 

By Christ youre an arsehole sometimes min.

Scotland voted against Iraq in Westminster. Against, our MP's in Westminster said no.

Scotland stood up and said to Westminster via our parliament - Not in our name

 

Scotland was only involved in Iraq because we were dragged there by Westminster. We wanted no part, we said so.

 

Those are the facts.

 

And Labour, they would've been in power at Westminster without our votes during Iraq. Simple fact.

 

We were dragged, we are not responsible.

 

This world can place sanctions on North Korea and Iran that makes it near impossible for them to build missiles with the capabilities of destroying their neighbours. This world also stands by while the UK sells components to a country that is committing genocide.

[robbojunior]

Scotland bears as much blame for the iraq catastrophy as the rest of the UK.

 

It was the darling of the Scots, the Labour party, which took us to iraq and they did so under scottish leadership (blair and brown are both scots).Israel has its own highly sophisticated defence industry and they produce better arnaments than does the uk.

 

Israel buys mostly components from the UK, stuff which they could buy anywhere.

 

You cant say we are military supporting them, just because we sold them a circuit board for a radar, or tyres for their land rovers.

 

Clydeside Sheep in taking up the contrary position shocker.

 

The nationality of the leader of a political party has no bearing on the will of the Scottish people.

 

Furthermore, Palestine had been an Arab nation for essentially 400 years prior to WW2 and therefore people living there could reasonably expect to have rights to the land. The UK stole huge chunks of their land and gave it to the Jews. The Jews, aided by the US and the UK continued to steal more and more land which did not belong to them for the next 60 years. How the Muslims could possibly be to blame in all this, I cannot even begin to comprehend. And I think it speaks volumes about your own character that you decry Muslims in relation to this conflict.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

we are not responsible.

Doesn't matter the topic, you always end up heaping empty praise on Scotland

 

"Scotland: the land of milk and honey, which can do no wrong".

This world also stands by while the UK sells components to a country that is committing genocide.

Why are you only animated about this particular genocide?

 

I guess I find it hard to take muslims seriously with their "free gaza" armbands etc, at the same time as their co-religionists prosecute genocide in mosul and elsewhere, without a peep of protest.

 

Its the double standards which sicken me the most.

[spamspamspam]

Doesn't matter the topic, you always end up heaping empty praise on Scotland

 

"Scotland: the land of milk and honey, which can do no wrong".Why are you only animated about this particular genocide?

 

I guess I find it hard to take muslims seriously with their "free gaza" armbands etc, at the same time as their co-religionists prosecute genocide in mosul and elsewhere, without a peep of protest.

 

Its the double standards which sicken me the most.

 

 

I've said fuck all like that whatsoever. You were the one saying we were responsible with no substance to that claim at all.

 

If saying we voted against the war in Iraq is praising Scotland in your eyes so be it. Just shows how ignorant you are to facts and how you'll try and claim anything at all in some stupid attempt to defend the indefensible.

 

Double standards? You are showing here you have no fucking standards at all.

[robbojunior]

Doesn't matter the topic, you always end up heaping empty praise on Scotland

 

"Scotland: the land of milk and honey, which can do no wrong".Why are you only animated about this particular genocide?

 

I guess I find it hard to take muslims seriously with their "free gaza" armbands etc, at the same time as their co-religionists prosecute genocide in mosul and elsewhere, without a peep of protest.

 

Its the double standards which sicken me the most.

 

At least you're not making a sweeping judgement on millions of people by their religious beliefs alone.

 

Bigot.

[spamspamspam]

Why are you only animated about this particular genocide?

 

 

Because we are not discussing old conflicts in Rwanda or Cambodia or more recently Sudan, North Korea and the Chinese crucade against Falun Gong, we are discussing Israel and Palestine.

 

You know nothing of my beliefs or affiliation, dont pretend for a second you do.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Clydeside Sheep in taking up the contrary position shocker.

What contrary position have I taken?

Furthermore, Palestine had been an Arab nation for essentially 400 years prior to WW2 and therefore people living there could reasonably expect to have rights to the land.

 

But someone can retort that it had been a jewish nation 2000 years ago and so ergo its their land.

 

Only by coming to an agreement - which inevitably means concessions from both - will the conflict be ended.

The UK stole huge chunks of their land and gave it to the Jews.

No we didnt, they took it via an insurgency. We tried to stop them arriving, we tried to defeat their insurgency - and we failed.

How the Muslims could possibly be to blame in all this, I cannot even begin to comprehend.

I have not blamed the muslims for the conflict, stop making things up.

 

I have blamed them for treating human life as cheap, and for deliberately causing civilian casualties on both sides (something israel does not do deliberately).

And I think it speaks volumes about your own character that you decry Muslims in relation to this conflict.

Instead of making person remarks, why not show what I have said that is incorrect?

 

Palestinian treatment at the hands of Israel is like a loving massage compared to muslim treatment of minorities in their own nations.

 

- is it not true that non-muslims in islamic states must pay the state protection money?

 

- is it not true that muslims fail to live in peace with others?

 

- is it not true that lies are frequently used as a pretext to harrass, imprison or even kill minorities in muslim nations?

 

- is it not true that women and minorities are denied even basic human rights in muslim nations?

 

- is it not true that foreign workers must live in secure compounds in muslim nations, both for their own safety and because they are considered unclean to mix with the rest of population?

 

- is it not true that muslim nations fund global terror?

 

And this is what people want to replace israel with? That doesn't sound like a very good idea to me.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

At least you're not making a sweeping judgement on millions of people by their religious beliefs alone.

 

Bigot.

I judge them by their actions, not by their beliefs.

[spamspamspam]

 

But someone can retort that it had been a jewish nation 2000 years ago and so ergo its their land.

 

 

Then the yanks can all fuck off back to where their ancestors came from

You can fuck off back to Ireland

Half on England can fuck off back to Asia

 

Ah, sounds like some sort of Census from biblical times. you'd like that wouldnt you?

 

 

I judge them by their actions, not by their beliefs.

 

You mean actions like bombing 4 kids playing fitba on a beach?

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Going back to the question about whether or not Hammas deliberately get their own civilians killed - yes they do. I was thinking about this last night.

 

Look at the succesfull PIRA campaign (what was it 1969 - 1999?). A strategy relying not on direct confrontation, but rather a bombing campaign aimed chiefly at the economy of their enemy. This worked for the PIRA - they successfully changed the status quo - it could work for Hammas too.

 

Its perfectly possible for Hammas to fight Israel, but in a way that doesn't cause civilians to be caught up amongst military action.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Spamx3 - you need to chill out, anytime swearing and righteous indignation begins to creep into your posts, its shows you are losing the rag

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Then the yanks can all fuck off back to where their ancestors came from

You can fuck off back to Ireland

Half on England can fuck off back to Asia

I am not sure what this latest rant has to do with the situation.

 

Fact is, the place was jewish long before islam even existed. 2000 years ago, it was a jewish nation which had been conquered by the Romans.

 

And I dont have irish ancestry, they wouldnt have me. My ancestry is Scots.

Ah, sounds like some sort of Census from biblical times. you'd like that wouldnt you?

Do you know what a census is?

 

Its not about people "fucking off" places.

You mean actions like bombing 4 kids playing fitba on a beach?

I provided a helpful list of my issues with muslim nations above.

[spamspamspam]

I am not sure what this latest rant has to do with the situation.

 

Fact is, the place was jewish long before islam even existed. 2000 years ago, it was a jewish nation which had been conquered by the Romans.

 

And I dont have irish ancestry, they wouldnt have me. My ancestry is Scots.Do you know what a census is?

 

Its not about people "fucking off" places.

I provided a helpful list of my issues with muslim nations above.

 

 

Land changes hands, leaders change, everything changes. Just because the area was Jewish 2000 years ago that gives no right to the area now.

If it did then you can fuck off back to Ireland where your ancestors came from or at least feel more at home and the yanks can all leave and give the land back to the natives... Get it now its explained dafty?

 

You are the one that likes living in the past. I thought a nice wee King Herod reference would appeal to you.

[Clydeside_Sheep]

Land changes hands, leaders change, everything changes.

So why don't you accept that it has changed back to being jewish?

Just because the area was Jewish 2000 years ago that gives no right to the area now.

I agree, I didn't say that it did.

 

I only pointed out that either side can produce various info to trump the others claims.

 

What does (or would) give a right to the area, in your opinion?

 

What possible solution do you see, what is the "end point" for this, in your opinion?